Episode 318 ControlTalk NOW — The HVAC and Smart Building Controls VideoCast and Podcast. Meet Eight Women Who are Rocking HVAC and Smart Building Controls

Featuring our ControlTalk NOW interview with Automated Buildings' Owner/Editor Ken Sinclair

New Optergy Enterprise & Proton v 2.4.6 Released: Critical Update-OE & Proton 2.4.6


Optergy Enterprise and Proton version 2.4.6 has been released to include some new features and critical security updates. Do not delay updating your site Improved SSL-Encrypted Web browsing using SSL (Secure Socket Layer or https). Read more!

NIAGARA FORUM LONDON 2019 to be held June 9-11 at Park Plaza West Minister


The Niagara Forum 2019 will be the place to learn what truly open systems can achieve and how to make the most of the opportunities offered by the IoT. The Niagara Framework has the power to connect diverse devices and systems in ways that have never been imagined before. 

Ken Sinclair’s Automated Buildings’ June, 2019 Editorial Theme: “You Do Not Know What You Do Not Know”


Recently returned from the 2019 Haystack Connect, Ken Sinclair shares more insight into our digital journey, a journey with transformational potential… “in the time-warped age of information that we now live in, when a new URL or a new APP, or You Tube can create a new direction with new prospects, while teaching us something we do not know. ” Click here for more.

Eight Women in HVAC and Smart Building Controls You Need to Know (Source: Freeman, Senior Partner & Technical Recruiter,BASI Solutions, Inc.)

So, what’s it like to be a woman in Building Automation and HVAC Controls in 2019, and what can be done both short term and practically to attract more women?

Dannah HagertyDannah Hagerty has been in HVAC and HVAC Controls for 18-years, all with ENTEK. Dannah, along with the seven other women in this article, is part of a small but elite group of professionals, i.e., the 1.4% that are the “women of HVAC.” 2

Dannah’s been on the roof and in the mechanical room. She’s gotten her hands dirty. “That’s what it takes to be successful whether you are a man or woman in HVAC,” she states. Today she is the VP of Sales for ENTEK.

As the mechanical/controls contractor for many interesting and exciting projects in and around Atlanta, ENTEK has a reputation for excellence. From her experience, she believes women have a knack for Building Automation. With the emphasis on energy savings, smart buildings, smart cities, and climate change, there are many opportunities for women on both the OEM and Contractor side.

Casey CrownCasey Crown, a Project Engineer with Sunbelt Controls in the Pac NW, sees more women becoming building owners and also coming into facilities management. Any mechanical/controls contracting firm who has a woman on the team who can connect with this group of decision-makers will have a leg up on their competition.

Casey’s own experience, coupled with her observations, suggests that mentorship is a powerful way to not only encourage women already in the controls industry but to move more women into choosing HVAC/HVAC Controls as a profession.

Casey has been in controls since 2006. Every day she can make a system run better, she knows she is making a positive change on the carbon footprint created by that facility.

Diane Fretz“Trinity Automated Solutions is a systems integration company formed in 2014 and born out of the desire to serve customers to the highest level of performance possible,” shares Dianne Fretz, the General Manager and a Vice President. Dianne joined the firm in 2018 because she wanted to get back to a small firm where teamwork is a top priority.

Dianne’s journey into building automation began in 2002 when the consulting firm she was working for had an assignment with a controls company, Logical Automation. “They had a sense of teamwork I had not experienced anywhere up to that point in my career.” As Dianne’s consulting assignment drew to a close, the President of Logical Automation approached her about joining the company which she did.

Dianne stayed with Logical Automation through a buyout, and in 2012 became the General Manager of their Pittsburgh office. Soon after, she was promoted and became responsible for all of Pennsylvania.

It was Logical Automation’s culture of teamwork that enabled Dianne, who had a business background, to learn the technical competencies necessary to be successful in Building Automation. It’s that same culture of teamwork that is critical to attracting younger workers today, which includes women.

Irma KempIrma Kemp has seen the dual benefit both a company and its customers receive by having men and women on the team. Given the differences in how men and women think, if there is mutual respect between team members, the work is done faster and with higher customer satisfaction.

Irma is in a position to observe this firsthand since she is a Project Manager for Sunbelt Controls out of their Headquarter’s office. Hence, she is involved with numerous projects.

Before entering Building Automation, she was in Industrial Automation. Irma’s perspective is that Building Automation is a good industry for women for many reasons, one of which is less pay disparity between men and women. People get paid for the skills they bring to the job.

Both Irma and Casey, totally independent of each other, discussed with me how the Sunbelt leadership team values and encourages diversity. Additionally, there is a work/life balance at Sunbelt, which is attractive to all young people, independent of gender.

Rhonda StathamRhonda Statham, Business Development Manager, and dedicated Trane Account Manager at Lynxspring, doesn’t believe there are any glass ceilings in Building Automation for anybody. It’s a world of endless possibilities. “We just need to get the word out there,” enthusiastically comments Rhonda.

Having been a Law Enforcement Officer earlier in her career and understanding human psychology, Rhonda knows first hand that men and women have different thought processes. Rhonda’s comments in this area resonate with Irma’s above (i.e., the differences in how men and women think.)

Thus, success in bringing more women into controls is dependent, in part, on all of us understanding this reality. It reminds me of one of Steven Covey’s 7-Habits of Successful People, “Seek first to understand then to be understood.”

Erin DeFriezeErin DeFrieze grew up with her Dad being in the trades. She has been in Building Automation and HVAC Controls for over 20-years. Her career began with a mechanical contractor as a mechanical service salesperson. A couple of years later, her focus shifted to controls with the Y2K issue. She has done everything from system troubleshooting to controls programming, system engineering, and customer training.

A year ago, Erin took a new position with Lynxspring as an Application Engineer in their Professional Services Group. Erin is passionate about what she does and is happy to speak with any young person and/or woman interested in our profession.

In my conversation with Erin, she brought up a fascinating point. “Controls are invisible,” she commented. Being in the industry, we think about them all of the time. But for everyone else, they assume the room will be cooled or heated to the right temperature; the lights will come on, the windows won’t fog up, and more. They aren’t aware of this entire “behind the scenes industry,” making all of this happen. It’s up to us to be missionaries for our industry at our kid’s school, at college job fairs, and career days.

Gina ElliottGina started her BAS career in Smart Building design with a consulting engineering firm. Today, Gina Elliott is Vice President, Americas, at EasyIO. Gina is passionate about BAS and shared with me that if she had the chance to do her career over, she would want to do everything she has done, plus add the opportunity to start at the technical level in the field because “that is where the action is.”

Gina, like Erin, commented that we are an invisible industry. Building automation is like the old BASF commercial, “We don’t make the products you buy. We make the products you buy better.” If we want to attract young people, whether male or female, they must know we are here.

Gina is an advocate of the idea that if we want more women in the industry, “we as women need to recruit women.” She is involved in Campus Outreach, Social Media, helping companies develop internships and more as an advocate for our industry.

Shellie PerreaultShellie Perreault, when asked, “How can we recruit more women into Building Automation and HVAC Controls?” responded with a very unique answer. She stated, “I don’t want more women in controls,” to which I inquired, “I know there has to be a method to your madness in that answer?” She effectively replied, “I want to see more amazing talent in controls.”

Shellie, a Foreman & BAS Commissioning Technician with Southwest Electrical Contracting Services, was the third professional of the eight to state, “No one knows our industry is out here. HVAC, much less controls, is out of sight, out of mind. You don’t even think about it.”

“BAS is a cool career. You are not going to become a building automation engineer simply because you get a degree. This is an industry where you can start at the bottom without saddling yourself with years of debt, earn a great living and, if you apply yourself, become almost anything you want to become in this industry. You can do installation, engineering, programming, and sales. You can do it all.”

In conclusion, I want to speak on some topics where the professionals interviewed are “off the record.” Yes, there is some awkwardness and sexual misbehavior. But it has been minimal. However, even one instance is one too many.

While the majority of the women interviewed feel they have been treated fairly by the companies they work for, it’s the customers that often “test” them. Customers will challenge them concerning knowledge, capability, and durability. But, if one stands their ground, takes things with a sense of humor but draws the line when things are inappropriate, and is willing to go above and beyond, the relationships forged are stronger than ever.

These eight women interviewed are inspirational, innovational, and indispensable. They are pioneers to the young women who want to enter this industry.

Many thanks to:
Dannah Hagerty (, Vice President of Sales, ENTEK; Buford, GA (

Casey Crown (, Project Engineer, Sunbelt Controls; Anaheim, CA (

Dianne Fretz (, Vice President and General Manager, Trinity Automated Solutions; Bridgeville, PA (

Irma Kemp (, Project Manager, Sunbelt Controls; Pleasanton, CA. (

Rhonda Statham (, Business Development Manager, Lynxspring; Lee’s Summit, MO (

Erin DeFrieze (, Application Engineer, Lynxspring; Lee’s Summit, MO (

Gina Elliott (, Vice President Americas, EasyIO; Singapore (

Shellie Perreault (, Foreman & BAS Commissioning Technician, Southwest Electrical Contracting Services; Converse, TX (



Other Articles We Loved From the June Issue:

Introducing Autonomous AI to HVAC:
The Future of Building Automation

By Jean-Simon Venne
Chief Technology Officer & Co-Founder
BrainBox AI


“HVAC structures are still designed as fixed systems, or programmed for a fairly static environment, even though the weather and seasons are fluid and dynamic. This static organisation is costly, both for business – since inefficient systems can contribute to higher energy bills and maintenance costs – and the environment. In fact, HVAC systems account for 51% of the total energy usage in commercial buildings. Inefficient and poorly managed systems are also responsible for occupant discomfort and a major contributor to rising levels of greenhouse gases.

As the first ever start-up to enable building automation control with artificial intelligence, BrainBox AI offers an autonomous AI technology for HVAC, placing it at the forefront of the autonomous building movement.

BrainBox AI uses deep learning, cloud-based computing, algorithms and a proprietary process to support a 24/7 self-operating building that requires no human intervention and enables maximum energy efficiency. Pre-commercialization tests have demonstrated that BrainBox AI enables a 25-35% reduction in total energy costs in less than three months, with low to no CAPEX needed from property owners. It also improves occupant comfort by 60% and decreases the carbon footprint of a building by 20-40%.”

Click here to read the entire article.

System Integrators Sales Challenges and Opportunities

“Exploring the effect of BAS industry change on System Integrator sales & marketing.

By Kevin McCaughey

Your Growth Engine, LLC

Smart Building Controls System Integrators Opportunities

  • “Up to 3X likelihood of high-value deal. According to Gartner in their CSO Update The New B2B Buying Journey and its Implications for Sales, “providing customers with information specifically designed to help them advance their purchase has the single biggest impact on driving deal quality that we’ve ever documented in all of our research.” Gartner’s research says there is a 3X change in the likelihood of a high-value, low regret deal when they receive quality information that helps them advance.
  • Differentiate with a Vision of Improvement for the Client’s Business. Also from Gartner, “What Sales Should Know About Modern B2B Buyers”, B2B customers want a unique perspective on their business and a vision of improvement. This is an opportunity to have a bigger conversation with building owners about the potential of their BAS investments.
  • Gain Visibility in the Digital Realm. Clients are evaluating you via digital channels throughout their buying process. An SI’s ability to win is a matter of both in-person and digital presence with the client team.
  • Meet IT on Their Terms. IT expects a potential provider to prove their claims through technology demonstrations and documentation. Meeting the needs of this essential stakeholder can elevate a System Integrator above the pack.
  • Attract new clients and talent with a digital presence and modern brand. Perhaps most important of all is the battle for talent. Just like your clients, the IT savvy talent you need in your business is evaluating you online. The opportunity for System Integrators is to enhance their digital presence and brand to win new business and attract the best talent.”

Click here to read the entire article.

Haystack 4.0 A Recap by John Petze and Marc Petock

“The big buzz at Haystack Connect was the introduction of Haystack 4.0, a game-changing update to the Haystack standard. This new version adds data-modelling features that support the implementation of both taxonomy and the resulting ontologies that define the relationship of things and between things. This means that if a project is specified with a common data schema that can represent all the critical aspects of the building—the people, places, and assets, and the relationships between them—then the sharing of data between domains becomes straightforward and enables data from one system to be used to enhance the functionality of others. Haystack 4.0 is the culmination of over a year’s worth of work resulting in new vocabulary, taxonomy, ontology, and inference that can better describe the real world through tagging and data modeling.


This year’s conference featured something new called Pitchfest. Think Shark Tank for Project Haystack. Each presenter had 10 minutes to pitch their company’s product offering and use of tagging and data modeling.”

Click here to Read the complete article.

In case You Missed it

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Show Transcription

ric Stromquist: The following is a presentation in the ControlTrends Podcasting network. I Eric Stromquist welcome Episode of ControlTalk. Now you’re HVAC and smart buildings controls podcast and video cast for the week ending June 2nd, 2019. This is episode 318 when we talk about how things like smart building controls and HVAC controls pretty much what ever else we want to. But what would the show be without your coast in mind? The man, the myth, the legend, the one, the only glow driving Russian, Uber driving control man from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The one and only Kenny Smyers. Kenny, welcome home and welcome to the show.

Ken Smyers: Well thank you very much. You’re, you’re right. We did some globe trotting, but you, you were there as well. Maybe not the Russian, uh, Uber Art. It was really neat guy. I get to see the Russian numbers that the joke was that the Russian tank was the rest of Uber, but they actually had Russian Uber cars that were immensely, uh, pretty hard. Maybe Mercedes, but they were painted yellow and at Uber, big black bold letters. Uber. And, uh, so when you said Russia, Uber, I have a photo that maybe also, sure. The big tank. That was the joke I saw Kenny say taking a Russian Uber and there’s a big tank that goes by the Uber and, well, there it is. That’s the tag. Yeah, it was in a really interesting thing. They were practicing the May 9th, uh, ceremony that they were having and they had unannounced a military convoy that came into the Red Square. And we were just leaving. And it was an amazing experience,

Eric Stromquist: but, well, yeah, and listen khe I tell you what, we’re, we got a lot to talk about guy, fabulous guests coming on. But this is a very special episode, episode 318 June, second 2019 market down because this is the first episode where we’ve had people ask us, can we sponsor this show? Can we be part of this show and sponsor it? And we’ve always just sort of said no, but we’ve changed that up and we have our first sponsor for our first show. And how about telling our community about our first month? I’d love to, uh, DG Lux now offered by lucid, uh, these guys are the masters of graphic design and data visualization for buildings. Uh, we knew them back when they put down a visualization in front of everybody on center stage, how important it was and they did it as well as anybody in the business. But the, so DG Lux is a leader in visualization for buildings. They solve unique building needs in a single unified interface with custom visuals in a single unified, uh, presentation. Um, what we’re offering here is if you sign up for 33 day trial, 30 day trial of the user friendly drag and drop editor project assist by clicking on the URL that will have on the show notes. It’s DG Lux dotcom slash control trends. Actually there’s a banner ad on the side of the control trends site. You Click there and it’ll take you right there. And again, I am so excited because you didn’t fall controlled trends for awhile. These are old friends, innovative friends. We finally used to call him the men in black back in the day, Eugene Mazo and Arthur Avenue. And the rest of the team. These guys have been around for a long time. Uh, I am so pumped up about the new stuff that they’re coming out with. They sort of, uh, have sort of retooled, read, geared up. They’ve been working all along and doing incredible stuff. And a man, if you get a chance to check their graphics, have to take the 30 day trial, you have nothing to lose. Uh, these guys are innovative, they understand our industry, they’ve been in our industry. So I’d encourage you to check them out. Well, and we’ve said that the data is the new book, the gold, new crude oil in our industry. But what they give you is the leverage all your data sources in a single unified development environment, meaning that the different c level players must have this information. Dg Lux is the best way to get it there.

Eric Stromquist: And I don’t care what people say, Kenny and I might be being politically incorrect when I say this, but looks matter and they had the most beautiful graphics I’ve ever seen. So would that check those guys out? AndK , let’s get all with this show. Big Dogs. So talking about it. But man, we just got back from Amsterdam and Rome. We were at the easy out global conference. So first things first, congratulations to Johan, and his team to Gina Elliot to Mike Marsh and the rest of our friends at vizio for another fabulous, fabulous conference. So what were your takes on the conference?

Ken Smyers: Well, again, uh, every year or every world conference we’ve seen the same boost up and, and technology. I remember the first time you saw the FG 32 than the FT 32 plus. Then we had the fs 32 and now we’re seeing more innovation with the FW series. They took lead in the wireless technology and the integration and they came out with a wireless FW eight, which freight inputs, outputs, and then FW, uh, 1414 inputs and outputs. And then we saw the Vav. So we got a chance to sit there in front of, uh, the European players, the people from all over the world. Actually, I say European, but they were from Australia, South Africa, Malaysia, uh, just places. I can’t even remember because it’s just, it’s such a global event. But the know they did a good job because a, it was held in a very interesting, unique place, a historic place, Amsterdam.

Eric Stromquist: There was just tons of fun in that regard. You know, just the beautiful buildings that the canals, just, just an extraordinary European city. But then he got down to business, like you said, Johan and Mike came out, they did a presentation. You could see just the pride of ownership, uh, exude from both of these guys. They showed their growth a pie chart or not pie chart on the sending chart. And it just seemed to double almost every year. But what they have projected for 2020, uh, is, is spectacular growth. And the, and they did some of the case studies and presentations of why that growth is so evident. And that one was Battersea, which was a remarkable, uh, project where they had the, the, the man in charge of that project as the, one of the keynote speakers. And he went down to a granular level explaining how they’ve now come up with a selection a tree.

Eric Stromquist: Uh, and how the cost experience and everything is so important. But once you get over a certain standard and technologies evidence and regardless of the length of time, that partnership and whatever, if it’s meets their SPEC and it’s the lowest installed cost, it’s going to be selected because the technology is changing. And we heard a new term, perhaps it’s new, I might have said before, but the CIO has had a IP controllers since day one and maybe one of the first ones to implement it. I think, uh, I heard an interesting, uh, presentation where, uh, the old first Jace was a Ip control back in 2000 whatever, but the it based industry IT-based automation, I IT-based building automation was remarkable that they showed their presentation where these io controllers were going right up into the network. There were no intermediates, no structural steps into a field level controller to supervise your controller to a front end, the front end to front end front end to the cloud, back and, and so forth. It’s going directly into the IP world, the network and, and uh, how they’re taking every measure that have a very secure controller, the communication and working with it. Then we thought we a have a plea coming out and work in America. Get Smart. Scott Cochran said, get to the it world, be friends, understand and talk the talk and be friendly to it while over in Europe, uh, the it people, uh, in, in, in the case of what we use a master systems integration for where they spearhead the car, uh, make sure that there’s no individual silos and that everything’s going to come on to network and they have that job to do that and make sure that everybody within prepared to put into that building, it must be communicated. It must be integrated. It must be smart. Well, they use the it department to run that, to be supervising that, that ultimate result. And I thought that was kind of fascinating and another morning flag thrown on the field. Hey guys, it is not something to ignore. Like cybersecurity is real. If you go into it with a positive attitude and you’re willing to invest in it, it’s going to provide handsome vivids. No, very much so. Very much so. And talk about being able to see it. We actually recorded virtually every one of those sessions is on the Control Trends Youtube Channel, so be sure to subscribe. Did, that’d be having already, we’ve got some, we’ll get some of these up on the control trends site. I like we’ve been saying the context coming out of so quickly, especially the visual stuff that youtube is the quickest way for us to get it to you. So again, there’s a link can subscribe to the Youtube Channel and we’ll also get as much of this as we can to you on control trends. But you know, Kenny, I tell you what, Europe was a fantastic trip. You know, Kenny, I went down to Rome after that. We drew some correlations to uh, like we always do to Caesar and Brutus and it and OT and huh. How our world is. But you know, you think about, you just sorted the correlation between that civilization and how long it went on and how many changes they went through. And you think about the relative, we just, let’s talk about the controls industry, how small that is by comparison. So if history teaches us nothing else, it teaches us that there nothing changes but the changes and we can learn that from history that you have to adapt or Brutus comes instead of Jr. So, uh, as an example, but then we tried to make it entertaining. We got some really cool footage of everything from the form to the Trevi Fountain to Kenny Gelato. Really good stuff. Well, yeah, and you know, the Brutus, the analogy there is that the technology could be your friend or it can be a nemesis, but I just want to go over that real quick. Uh, the faculty members that attended yourself, so to speak. Uh, the gentleman I was referring to, the phase two, a director who was a Adrian for j Easy Battersea Power Station development phase two director it Todd Randall had a buildings for a optimization services. Vern Virchow global great presentation, uh, several reason, the mood, uh, she’s a student competitive wonder eco sponsor a, uh, you know, the young gun type of event that wasn’t the term they use, but they were recognizing a young engineer who was doing research work for sustainability and a 17 one and she did her presentation very interesting was that it was phenomenal. And then they took a building, uh, the top floor of a building and they had a hyper, hyper, hyper hyper tonic growth and it was based on water and it was based on growing things that produced oxygen for the building occupants and CO2 for the plants.

Speaker 2: It was an incredible exchange of natural forces and uh, just remarkably intuitive. Uh, Limu Chart, a CTO, CIO, again, the, the, uh, Egio is, has, has just always set the new standard on technology. Uh, they’re now getting into Mtq t, uh, protocol and it’s being used by several other customers in Europe. And we got to see how that now comes in. And there’s the MPQ t driver by Tridium so that the world’s coming up with a, another presentation of information shorter, faster, quicker, and Tommy hygienists, managing director energy controls Asmr. Tommy’s a young gun from, uh, from way back, but he had a very distinguished gray there. They’re handsome guy, George cloney a lot, but a very brilliant in many regards, but he’s totally iot and anything that gets in the way that like water, it’s not gonna work. So any of these, a builtin proprietary stuff or whatever, he believes that the natural forces will find a way around it very quickly. You get to where it belongs. Richard Reed, uh, we finally got Richard Reed is controlled trends trophy from 2017 where he was, he won most advanced consultant, uh, in, in, in, in our controlled trends, awards, voting. And um, we were able to give him that in person. It would a remarkable guy. He was what we should thoughts about Richard?

Eric Stromquist: Uh, it was very impressed. He definitely deserved the trophy. A very articulate and a w again, we had his presentation video, did some of the youtube channel. It’s definitely worth checking. I think we might’ve posted that on control trends. We should definitely post that one on.

Ken Smyers: Yeah, but, and then we had a guest speaker, a Dwayne don a clock or not and he talked, he did a very interesting presentation about bureaucracy and it was about safety on roofs from his, from his condominium where he lived up on a mid 20th floor of a building. He was able to look down over a certain part of the city and he was curious because he saw the installation, a trip wire safety wire, but it actually served as well as a trip wire to if you weren’t paying attention, but it was to be safer and then to get up on the roof, they put in these enclosures around the ladder so he couldn’t fall off the ladder. And so he’s watching this and this incredible investment and money and whatever and how after they get it, nobody uses it because he was a pain in the butt. If by the time they were already up there on the roof for 10 minutes and it took him 20 minutes to put all the safety gear I wanted to go for 10 minutes. So they just ignored it. But he was remarkable. Jerry Steinfeld to put it in. He took care of you in a while, a little bit to warm up to him and he eventually got to be funny, but it took him a while to get there. But he has some really good points. But Dutch Jerry Seinfeld, he about six, nine. Yeah. Anyway, he was, he was, he was, he was a pretty good, again, I’ll come after. And so he was a cool dude. But uh, well just cathedral theme, he was doing how he showed all this cathedrals. His hobby is his passion. His, he’s visited all the cathedrals, uh, certain types of cathedrals in western Europe. One day two, they had great technicals training. Uh, and you know, that was good too. So Kenny, all in all, it was a great trip. Congratulations again to the team at easy audio. Uh, he can’t, if you want to know more about those guys, but we have links to the website. But we also have a training series on the control trends website. There’s an easy out of easy io logo on the right hand side of the page. You Click on it, it’ll take you to a six or seven training videos. And I mean, you go through those things and you’re good to go, you’re ready to start. You know, there’s be some updates and stuff like that. But I think you get an idea for the power of that controller has simplicity of it and, uh, these guys are innovative and, you know, part of their strategy, Kenny is saying, well, let’s not a vet anything. We don’t have to. So instead of like, for example, uh, uh, you know, build into controller and then putting a route or on it, they’ll buy a router and put a controller into it. So it’s a little different philosophy. But lem is who chopped who we mentioned before, the chief designer of these products is very practical. He’s brilliant. And, uh, yeah, it shows up in their products. Well sure it doesn’t. And we have a, a, a controlled talk to interview with the, you did a remarkable interview with the shot where he talks about how he grew up, uh, in, in what he was exposed to a technology they built around televisions. Uh, you know, just out of absolute necessity. He’s worked his way through all the universities and, uh, actually has a couple of patents to his credit and worked for a long while with Tridium and a so accomplished on mind. Uh, you know, in a forest in the, in our building automation industry. And so there’s no, no surprise he’s coming up with these great controllers, but they’re really proud of the FTO for, and this is a new iot device that doesn’t have a control work, putting automation connotation. This is an iot device. You can use it for whatever you want to control. Two inputs into outputs. And it’s remarkable. When are you gonna do shade control? What? It’s up to your own device. But the cost and the implementation is remarkably simple. And that’s where two that go with the Mq. Uh, yeah. So less expensive, less expensive than taking, taking your best friend to coffee and Starbucks. So it’s good stuff. But Hey Kay, talk about good stuff and talking about markable individuals. Uh, let’s bring our guests on. How about introducing him? Eric, I’d love to, uh, we have one of the most formidable voices in the industry, uh, over 50 years of experience. Uh, and yet every, every time Ken puts out a new article or new edition, it brings new insight into our industry and it’s really moved us all along. So we moved the needle as far as bringing it on into the forefront of our industry. We’d like to welcome the other editor of automated buildings. Dot. Kahn, Mr Ken Saint Claire, welcome to the show can. Okay.

Ken Sinclair: Thank you very much guys. Always a pleasure to be on your shelf.

Eric Stromquist: Well, we love having you, my friend. And, uh, did you an issues that we’re going to get to that in a little bit later. But, uh, listen, I, I kind of have you been traveling a lot? We’ve been traveling a lot. There’s been, you know, I kind of think of it as a spring season of conferences as you will, if you will. We know we, we talked last time about controls con, but since then we’ve been to haystack connect and Kenny not been too easy. Io, so I’d like to get your thoughts on haystack. Yep. If you’re having a week or two to ponder.

Ken Sinclair: Yes. A great event, a great venue. Um, actually took my daughter and granddaughter down with us to enjoy the joy, the great resort. Well, that was at the convention, uh, very close, uh, intense, uh, haystack. Uh, the community is, is stronger and uh, what some of the folks are doing with haystack is amazing. Uh, I was also very impressed with the, uh, the keynote speaker who, uh, who did the, uh, you know what you know, and you, but you don’t, and you know what you don’t know, but you don’t know what you don’t know. And uh, we kind of ponder that. I think that’s a pretty good description of are moving forward, uh, in our industry right now is there’s just all this stuff we don’t know. We don’t know because we’re moving into, uh, the iot space and, uh, stuff that is known to them is not known to us. So, uh, uh, I think it was a really good theme and I thought he did a great job of pulling that, the haystack. The other one was, cause you said two things. I want to spend a little more time on, two really profound points and then remember this third one you were going to make. The first one was you mentioned you saw some super impressive things at a haystack. Could you give us an example of one or two of those? I know there were a lot of them cause there were a lot in there for me too. Uh, the pitch fest were amazing. Uh, I found them extremely entertaining and uh, uh, I actually as as a format for, uh, uh, presenting information rapidly, I, I have to applaud the, uh, John and mark. That was a great idea. And, uh, the, the pitch fests that stuck in my mind was a, our, our contributing editor, uh, uh, Zack, uh, telling us about how he’s taken his little raspberry, a controller, uh, to the next level, and it is now, hey, stackable and a is basically, uh, speaking the protocol. That was kind of an interesting concept. Another one that caught me was, uh, Intel, uh, the fact that Intel has actually supporting a haystack. I found that incredibly, uh, uh, enlightening. Uh, and of course, uh, the semen folks were all there with their purchase of a j two and comfy, uh, are, are also, uh, incredibly strong supporters of Haystack. So all of that gave me a real warm feeling of the tremendous success haystack has actually achieved in the last, uh, eight years.

Speaker 1: What are they really had caddied for our community wasn’t there? The pitch fest was kind of along the lines. I haven’t seen it, but I think there’s a show called shark tank where basically people have a limited amount of time to present their concept and their ideas. So everybody was on the clock when they had to do their, uh, their, their pitch if you will. And it was really phenomenal. The stuff that they were coming up with. And you know, a couple of things that impressed me was a Johnson has with their FX had just introduced their automatic tagging convention where they could add haystack tags automatically. That was really impressive. Uh, tritium, uh, one of the guys that talk from Trillium was talking about how they use the tagging and how easy it was to do. So to your point, I think the community has really come a long way and when you talk about a concept, you talk about communities of practice and the co competition cause you’ve got different competitors there that are contributing to a greater cause. And you know, I really, there were sort of that esprit de Corps that was almost palatable there that, you know, in the past it was kind of like, you know, maybe we can make this work. But to me there seems to be like a, there was a sort of a level who certainty like, okay this has happened is going to go forward to, did you feel that too? Very much so uh, I’m glad you brought that up cause that was probably my month. One of my next comments is where we used to go to and talk about how, you know, talk about why you should use haystack. It was, it had gone way beyond that. They were all there showing how they were using a stack and how it is going to be part of the next products. The other thing that flashed in my mind as I was listening to some of those pitch fests and seeing this brick bought down to a chip level and to a raspberry level, uh, the idea of OEM equipment becoming coming to the site, Hey, tat haystack tagged, uh, it’s just like, oh my God, that’s the way this is going to happen is somebody who’s going to buy one of these new controllers because it’s cheap and it’s incredibly powerful and it’s incredibly connected. They don’t even have to know what this is. Just like they don’t have to know what backnet is. They just have to know that it’s haystack enabled. And so now I’ve got my chiller, I slide it across the floor. It, uh, wirelessly wakes up and has its haystack tags and joins in the fray because of that. So, uh, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s tremendous success in each years.

Eric Stromquist: Yeah. I want to bring Kenny in real quick because Karina, as you were kind of worth the very first haystack and Chattanooga, which was, it was just groundbreaking, but Kenny, you had a couple of your key, I’d writers, some of the brightest guys. I know that we’re actually at that event, uh, sort of following up. Uh, what do you see in actually in the field with some of the guys like that you deal with that were at that first meeting? Is it something that they’ve adopted, are using, is it become prevalent yet, sort of on a granular level, or we’re still waiting for it to happen? Well, I think what happened initially it was you had to, you know, just like any, any change, uh, you know, the evolution or the development of technology, you’ll have your early leaders and the people that jump on board right away.

Ken Smyers: And these are the folks I think that followed. Uh, John Petsy, Brian Frank was sky found the obvious opportunity there that it was kind of at a higher level. And, and the guys that I knew that were really invested in it, uh, have been handsomely rewarded. In other words, analytics, uh, evolved from, I think case that if you put it in order of presentation, at first it was haystack and the concept of templating and semantics and how all these different languages and alphabets and everything are just, they’re not good for anybody, let alone the industry. And if you organize this, there’s a payoff. And then the pay off was that sky found. He started to take, take roots in it, developed into a global thing. We were over at several European events and I was shocked at the sky foundry had developed concurrently over in a different, in a global market other than North America. We always think, you know, everything happens here and this is the origin of this where it happens with over there they took the data rolling, you know, important too and then an improved and you started seeing the, the Colescott’s collaboration. And I think Ken, you had a lot to do with it. I think the things that you did at HR brought the mechanisms into place. People got to understand that tragic haystack even more and even more, certainly didn’t hurt to have the uh, the, the, the corporation they had found a one c, uh, and it was a nonprofit corporations or people could put money into this thing and then you had some really serious champion efforts, a medical, not whiny from Richard. You had a Alberto or old smells Mesler from a Ba SSD. These guys would conk contributing really some serious thought power into this. And of course, Brian Frank continued to steer this thing in a very positive direction. Now you have all the big corporations behind, you have Siemens, you know, with Jay to innovation, that fence deck, you know, and they’ve put all their chips on haystack. They think that that’s the only true open protocol that exists is haystack. And you also have Tridium with an eye of your driver. And then, uh, you as is probably the most formidable framework in the industry, uh, you know, putting it into place so it becomes a no brainer that haystack and tagging is going to evolve so much quicker and faster because the major players are behind it and it’s kind of come down in cost, come down and experience, you know, the Tridion puts 10, 25 free analytic points onto your, every single adjacent they sell to support and, and ferment that have developed an analytics. So a lot of people believe, like you usually say that data’s the next oil. So the next, cool. Well, I, I, you know, I think you’re right. Catty. And one of the things that did happen, um, was Brian Frank spoke on haystack for, there’s the fourth versions out and can you, you can’t, it’s inquiry. You can chat on that on this. But you know, one of the big takeaways there is now it’s not just necessarily taggy now, it could be more descriptors. You’re adding a lot more metadata to, uh, to that packet. So even more is going to be available. But you’ve got Brian Franks presentation on the Haystack for was amazing. Again, actually the, and I was glad they, uh, they originally, it didn’t have it in the, in the original keynote opening session and they, they wedged it in and I’m glad they did because as, as the excitement to see that haystack is real and being used. And then to have him roll out is, okay, here’s the next version and this is what it does. And of course, the, the, the short story there was, is basically haystack forward includes tagging for tagging. And once one gets one smile around that, that’s pretty amazing. When he started showing us what we could do if we started tagging the tags and how we could, uh, pull information out and, uh, and sort stuff by, uh, in, in haystack for it. Uh, I was, I was very, very impressed. It was, it was one of them. We actually have that video of Brian’s talk up on our youtube channel so we can go prep a link there on the show notes so that everybody can see that the volume was a little soft on it, but you can hear him. I wasn’t our best audio, but it was, it’s definitely worth the listen there. And I think, you know, do our community out there at the end of the day, we’re really talking about is we’re talking about, uh, it’s not that we couldn’t connect buildings and get data points out before because we’ve always been able to do that, but it was just a cost to it that was usually prohibitive. And what we’re talking about now as haystack just allows a very inexpensive, affordable way to connect everything. And, uh, it’s almost the cost you more not to now than it does to, that was the common message from almost everyone is that, uh, on these larger jobs, she’s like, how are you doing it? You know, like, you can’t, you can’t do it without a stack. You have to sort, you know, sort of all this information out anyway. So, yeah, really, really good. And lots of participation, lots of new vendors, uh, that are supporting it to the hilt. It’s interesting, we’re seeing, we’re seeing vendors arrive that basically their whole offering is, is based on a sack. They wouldn’t, they wouldn’t have a product if there was no haystack.

Ken Sinclair: Interesting. Why would it is and, and, um, yeah. And, but I think that’s just a shit when, you know, you made the statement about the guy saying you don’t know what you don’t know. Uh, I think there’s, you know, you talk about that in, I think there’s a thing of your article, but if you think about it, uh, knowing is probably your, has you be a more risk at risk than anything else? Because there’s so much that’s coming into our industry. I mean, you definitely have to understand what, you know, you have to understand how to apply, but you better be open to the fact that there’s more, you don’t know now than there is that you do if you’re going to be able to compete in this brave new world. Yeah. The interesting coming into our industry, I’m kind of looking at it the other way, which I kind of always look at everything the other way somehow. But, uh, uh, I’m kind of seeing what’s happening is we’re becoming a, the automated, uh, intelligence part of Iot. I think the transformation is so real that we are no longer, uh, who, who we were. We basically have come across the floor and people will seek out our services as those specialized iot people that work in the building automation, building, uh, intelligence space. So I see our industry transforming in the final analysis, the work you guys do and the work the systems integrators do, the master system integrators is only going to get tougher and they’re going to have more and more of it because that’s sort of our secret sauce is that we know how hard it is to actually reach out and grab those physical devices and make them, uh, you know, make them come into this data world. When we touch the data, people, they know how to make this data do anything we wanted to. But uh, we know is that, is that data real only we can confirm that. Yeah. Those, those sensors are correct or not correct. Well, so the analogy I would use is like, you know, we’re all great writers, right? Cause we’ve been riding forever so we understand the content. But you know, again, and I guess when I say you don’t know what you don’t know, if you’re trying to convince somebody to use a typewriter because you don’t know computers exist, you might not know the right words, but you’re gonna lose tremendous credibility if you’re pushing typewriters versus computers as an analogy. Well, you know, when you said that you don’t know what you don’t know. Uh, it was interesting because I have recently attended a class or training where the progress being made here and we’re talking what, nine years since the inception of a project case deck. But now a whole industry now is jumping on board with queries, databases, learning. But the, the interesting thing about you don’t know what you don’t know is that AI now are automated intelligence is now going to be doing this come in continuous commissioning thing. In other words, you could just almost like go to sleep after you put five or six queries together and say, okay, Joe, tell me how many vowels I have that haven’t, uh, modulated in the last 24 hours. And then once that’s successful, you can go back six months. Basically you could determine now all the things that you didn’t know because now you can ask questions to where the data queries to get you information. And then once you understand where your biggest pain points are, where you’re losing money, we have heating, cooling, right? At the same time, all these other sparks or whatever we were calling you now can put this continuous commissioning in the work and it doesn’t sleep. And so it generates more critical, relevant data that begins to really truly bring the fruition. You know, everything that we’ve all been talking about, it coming down, it’s coming down to the golden nuggets. It’s coming down into business cases where you know that the primary 70% of the people into the building from this side, so we’re, where are you going to put the, you know, we’re gonna make sure that you optimize your parking, you flow inside the building. You know, if you know, all these things can come together that you just started, you know, just thinking, Hey, what, what, what’s the information here? They can make a better impact on occupancy and comfort and you know, sustainability and stuff. It’s just, it’s amazing that, you know, it’s coming together. It’s really, you guys have brought testament. I didn’t play Hooky by the way I had, I had commitments. So that’s why I’m this project tastes deck. But I’m your coverage of it both in what you guys say and then you’re putting us together really amplifies through the industry. And I think, I think the controlled transcended all my abilities have, has done a good job trying to capture what’s being said and put those takeaways in a media format that can be used and reused and understood and repurposed. That’s really, it’s cool stuff. Thank you very much for that. Uh, the, uh, the point I wanted to make went away.

Eric Stromquist: Well, well listen, so we’ll, we’ll, we’ll come back to that. I’m sure it’ll pop in in a second. So two things. Um, you know, one k to your point, one of my teachers used to say, and he was one of Edwards Deming’s to cycles that quality guy. And his statement always was in God, we trust and all else get data. And basically, uh, you know, data is the great equalizer. But, uh, and again, haystack allows that which you can create all kinds of efficiencies. So it’s not even so much about the energy savings anymore. So I’m like haystack enable. It is about, uh, the operational savings and everything else you can get. So that’s, that’s a huge piece here. You got kit.

Ken Sinclair: I got it. I was off on my data scientist rent, but not being a data scientist. Uh, I slipped a digit that, that was the other thing that was common that the, uh, the tables and the discussions is a, the industry is in, especially the hastag industry is, is somewhat starting to divide into the technical gathering of information people and the data scientists. And, uh, actually your discussion there, uh, Kenneth was very much on what you’re discovering is all the things that the data scientists know. And that’s why they want us to keep this data in a completely different bin. And don’t note ever preconceive what you’re going to do with your data because you will never guess because you don’t know what you don’t know. Because inside of that data is the question that you would’ve never asked had you not looked at it from a data analytics point of view. And so spending some time with these data scientists and trying to understand, and then for them, the whole data scientist approach is, is using that data to build all kinds of cases that we haven’t even thought of yet. So it’s a, it’s a whole new world and of course that is the step into a machine learning and artificial intelligence is basically going to, that link is going to be filled by our data scientist. And a data scientist is now becoming a very common, uh, employment, uh, term, uh, uh, for, uh, for the, uh, industry. And there’s one of the sessions they had that was great. There’s those, I got to introduce a Lucy kid, uh, with Buena Bruno, uh, out of Australia. And, uh, she’s just started and started as a data scientist and was attracted to our industry because she saw the exciting opportunity. She was originally trained in robotics. Uh, but, uh, if you read the interview on our site, uh, the new kid on the block, uh, which is how good is that? Their name is spelled k, I, d d and a, so it was actually able to bring to fruition my, uh, let’s, let’s involve these kids in a r a as our younger mentors and moving forward. So it gave me a good ploy to do that. But I think that’s, that’s, that’s a typical new employee for our industry. And uh, uh, you know, I don’t know that we saw that many years ago that we would have a data scientist and engagement specialists as the people in our industry. That Aside your thing because, uh, you know, a company to work for me with the master system integrators have to systems, no, Keith, uh, I think his last name is Baker is a data scientist and one of their key people. So, uh, I think it gives him a definitely a perspective on data analytics that only a data scientist could have. So I want to shift gears to go off candidate just for a minute, cause we’re talking to my dad and we’re talking about artificial intelligence and machine learning. And if you guys met tracking this whole Cambridge analytical thing that’s going Analytica thing that’s been going on, it’s huge. They’re, they’re, they’re, they’re taken Facebook to court on it, but there’s a group, all of data scientists called Cambridge Analytica and apparently, you know, they collect data and their mission statement is not just to collect at that and understand that their mission statement is kind of ominous. We’re going to collect the data, understand it, and they were going to modify human behavior based on, and this is apparently the group that was involved with, uh, the potential of the Trump election and, you know, they’re, they’re questioning did they, what kind of influence did they have on the US presidential election? So it’s 20 gets back to that other side Kent’s incredibly you brought up before and our European brother rather than we’ll talk about that, uh, we’ll get to these geo conference are very much aware of sort of the, the uglier side of all this data and collecting it visa via at the very low end privacy issues and maybe at the high end, uh, modifying human behavior unbeknownst to us based on tendencies that are half that we don’t know that we know that we have.

Eric Stromquist: Well, but you know, I think I did a little bit about it and I don’t, when we’re talking about our show here in talking about Ken Saint is doing the dishes, the Cambridge Analytica, but you know, the, the subliminal suggestion stuff and all that that’s been going on for I guess 19, 1950, I believe it was. The first one was this. Oh, I’m actually, but yeah, but conscious.

Ken Smyers: So there the point being is that, yes, and the point made by Sabrina, what was her name? Sabrina vanish about the data being now and information is a $200 billion industry. Bad things are gonna happen when you have large sums of money. Uh, Lord, Bertrand Russell said that anytime you have Lord Large, incredibly large sums of money at stake, it’s corruption has to be, you know, be, be a consideration because people will do anything to get access and control those large sums of money. And he was referring back to World War One. It lasted longer than it should. It should never have lasted all those years because no one’s going to win. And if we’re doing it because they thought the industrial powerhouses were, were joy joining such an incredible financial windfall by, by having this ongoing nightmare. And so, but yeah, I think we all have to watch and to train the cycle back to your June edition, uh, Sabrina wrote lol, she’s a marketing specialist and now she’s talking about those very same things. How data has a two edge sword and how if you don’t have laws and standards in place, and I think if, if we’re, if we’re going to say anything about cameras analytical, that is that our government needs to step up. All government should step up and create an equal power base to these, these, uh, libbers guys, if people could make a consortium and not have any kind of a nationalistic or whatever, you know, driven, uh, policy and it’s just a powerhouse, almost like Amazon exceeds all cameras on all the national borders, will, Amazon has changed our entire culture. The Amazon effect is now, uh, you know, just take it for granted. It’s going to put the small book places, I’ll radio places. Everything’s going to be consumed by this giant whale of, of, uh, of a momentum that makes things more efficient. It makes things easier. So on the one hand, you get your stuff delivered the next day, the toilet paper in the printer paper, whatever you need, you order it online. It shows up the very next day. And I’ve done it because it’s just why, why should I go to the driving, you know, two miles of the store parking, parking lot, walking through the store, check out for half hour when I can just type in a request and it’s here tomorrow. Well, you get back on track. You already got the answer to this question because you’ve told me, and I’ve read it to you, to Jeff Bebo’s basically in his books, he says, my goal is not to make a profit, profits to destroy my competition. First reason you, the reason you want to drive to the store whenever you can is because, yeah, you might be getting at an inexpensive price now when there’s no store to go to, then your prices are gonna go way up and you’re not going to have a choice, right? But, uh, you know, the, again and the daily a world we live in with traffic with a, I’m going to be all accents. I mean it’s just so we’re, we’re all confronting something that, you know, we all have to deal with in our time on lifetime future man. I hope these young people that you guys sit, then a scientist that Kim just mentioned, Ms Kid could look at this subjectively and make the right decisions at the right times. Cause if it’s crazy now in 2019, what’s it gonna be like in 2025 or 2035, right? As, as your truck, as you get sort of somewhat inside of the heads of some of the younger folks and see what they’re thinking. Uh, the social side of what they do is becoming much bigger than, uh, than we ever, I remember being in our meetings and stuff. So quite often I’d go to the meetings and half of the meeting is spent talking about the social side of collecting the data or whether that’s something that people want and, uh, you know, this, the engagement, the engagement of the community. So I think, I think that is sort of somewhat self, uh, self healing, I guess. Uh, my concern is, is that much of what we have in, uh, North America came from the wild, uh, world, uh, automated buildings being one of those things. And, uh, there’s a million other things that just kind of grew and in an unstructured unformatted world. And we grew extremely fast. We came up with some incredible capabilities to do some incredible things. I am very, very concerned about government getting involved in this process and mobilizing. And I think that’s one of the big concerns of Europe right now is a, that they potentially can be immobilized. And, uh, I know there was a tweet that I posted a while back, uh, from the top guy in China. His name escapes me that basically runs the equivalent of their, uh, Facebook and he says, I, I am, uh, I’m concerned about Europe because Europe is going to tie themselves into a position that they won’t be competitive because they will, you know, there’ll be social socially correct, but not be able to move. Uh, and I don’t know, somehow it all works out. It’s, um, it’s like Asian culture. You go into an Asian city and, uh, you cannot imagine how the city can function. Uh, 15 million people all in one place driving, running, biking, and hardly anybody gets killed. But it, it all works. It’s just organized chaos. And, uh, you know, I think within that, that spirit of organized chaos, I think we can move ahead faster and, uh, I kind of believe that it will be self healing. Uh, uh, as we start to get, uh, people misusing it, uh, as long as the people have the same power, they will design systems to, you know, to push on them out. And, uh, the only big thing is, is my fear is as we will no longer have a totally open internet where we’re heading towards an internet of countries and a lot of divisions.

Ken Smyers: Yeah, I’ve wanted, it’s very well said. And you know, again, I like to contradict myself in especially in the same, same uh, interview here are saying, uh, session is that on one hand, you know, uh, I was referring to what Elon Musk said about artificial intelligence and how there’s no standards. There’s no, there’s no, there’s no committees to put boundaries around something that could be, uh, you know, you know, so threatening. It’s at it’s furthest extreme. You know, you’re not getting science fiction oriented here, but there’s been some publications and Eric and I have read them where if I, artificial intelligence goes on check because it had no structure, no boundaries, no limits, uh, it can take on at dimension that’s not intended, not desire, certainly not favorable. Mankind. On the other hand, I agree with you, let ne organize chaos loose. I’ve always been a fan of that, so I, I see contradictions in my own statements in one hand, certain things have to have some sort of a ceiling to them or guard rails. On the other hand, I agree with you is that if Uncle Sam or any of any uncles, uncle Fritz from Germany or whoever tries to come in and impose boundaries without, you know, in, in stifle a free thought, you know, and then the, that’s also a terrible and it’s a good challenge for sure. What is not sure we’re going to solve it on this interview? Well, no [inaudible] formation here. We might because we hadn’t even gotten to your June edition yet. I think in there there’s, there’s a lot of good insights. Kenny’s alluded to, a couple of them can, but, uh, uh, you know, again, just put a ribbon on Haystack, congratulations to John and mark and the rest of the haystack team for the great job they’re doing. That happens every two years. So, uh, you won’t get to see them next year, but the year after that, and Kenny and I can’t say Clara keep you posted. We’ll give you plenty of warning so you can make it there. But, uh, hey, it’s June 1st and it is time for hearing about the June episode. The June edition of automated buildings can’t tell us what it’s all about.

Ken Sinclair: Ah, okay. Really pleased with this issue because we built on the theme. Yeah. You don’t know what you don’t know. And, uh, of course I get to learn lots of things every time I take that approach. Uh, real pleased with, uh, one of the articles, uh, are contributing editor, uh, Nicholas wrote, it’s called rest in peace, a backnet and he basically has a dialogue that he’s been having online with a bunch of folks on Linkedin. Uh, and, uh, so he actually talks around that. And a, the confusion is, is, yeah, backnet is still pretty important stuff is, uh, again within this a controlled chaos that we, uh, that we live, uh, things like, uh, backnet or a bright light and things like haystack or a bright light. Uh, basically then it’s followed up with the next, uh, uh, article, which is from pooping Iao at, uh, up to go and he’s talking co count your assets before they, uh, before they are hacked. And, uh, then we had a, the one that, uh, uh, Ken was referring to from Sabrina. You, you don’t know what you don’t know and she talks about how we need to question is, but my, one of my favorite ones is one that, uh, uh, skip put together women in control and he just did a great job of reaching out and interviewing, uh, some powerful women in our industry. And, uh, it’s just a tribute to them and they are attributed to us and, uh, their, their attitude of wanting to be mentors and help us, uh, grow our industry with the young women coming out of universities and encourage young women to go into universities and colleges to train to become a, into our, uh, our industry. Um, so yeah, lots of stuff going on there. Well, I’ll skip that I guess is a technical recruiter. So he would certainly have his finger on the pulse of trends recruiting because they don’t, one of the biggest challenges all of us have and everybody I’ve talked to is, you know, finding good people. And Ken, I would like to just take a minute and sort of go through some of these folks because I recognize a couple of these names. Uh, one of the first one is Danna Haggerty Danna worked with Ed Tech in Atlanta. I’ve known Dan and now for about 15 years and she is a powerhouse. She’s phenomenal, uh, does a great job for the team at Entech. So, uh, I can definitely speak very highly of Danny cause I know her personally. I’m sure all these women are incredible. I can only talk about the ones that I know, although I’d like to meet the rest of them. So maybe we can get them to come on the show at some point in time. And of course another way are very familiar with is Gina and Ellie and Gina is less easy. I have North America now and is a phenomenal individual. Great. Can, not only did she do a controls and, and you know, break marketing mind, she has a publishing company that she does. She actually went to school to be a Wharton, so she just knows all about the law and just, you know, a fascinating multi-dimension person. So I feel really pretty privileged to know her. But, uh,

Ken Sinclair: I’ve got to have to credit, I’d have to credit Gina with sort of probably getting this going as long ago as four or five years ago at an HR meeting. Uh, uh, I can remember we’re standing in the lobby of Ahr and it was Gina and Teres and, uh, we were just talking, uh, about, uh, women in control. And, uh, I think from that, uh, we’ve been picking away at it and we’ve had some, uh, some strong strong leaders, certainly, uh, uh, out of the control con event, uh, Scottie Cochran’s event. Uh, he’s got a strong stable of a, of ladies who basically, uh, keep him on track and basically helped push the industry from that side. Uh, the big thing I’m seeing is that we need to grow. We need to grow fast, we need to grow now. And, uh, we have resources, I believe in the wings of all of our companies. Uh, women that are, are almost trained because they work every day with a funny control numbers that we all need to know and they understand our industry. And, uh, basically with a bit of job crafting, I think they can turn into the stellar people like are outlined in this interview interview. Well, I think that’s very well said. Can I think it’s the, again, just to, uh, to kind of talk on our side controlled trans awards has always really truly begin to really understand the importance in there. We’d be in, I think back in 2014 but does again, just some of the names that popped up in the one of the year thing. Uh, we’ll, Teresa Sullivan is now a Trillium achieved amazing person, amazing voice named Joseph Jenny graves pseudo jam. Thi uh, Stephanie as that does that to Kowalsky from this tech was one of the ear canal in 18. But I agree with you so much that the woman in the, I mean, I imagine the, uh, the, I lived in Germany for nine years and I knew some very professional women that they were, they were, uh, the ceilings were placed on a professionally to the point where we actually left Germany, whatever the country, South Africa, and they went from being the assistant CEO to CEO to get that they had to escape, you know, the, the limitations of culture, but just want to give the rest of the women that were identified in that article. Shout out Casey crown with sunbelt controls. Uh, Diane fits the general manager, vice president of Trinity Automated Solutions. Uh, Irma camp. Um, she’s the project manager for sunbelt controls. Uh, Rodney strapping business develop manager for training, account manager at length spring, uh, Aaron de freeze. Um, she is a building automation and AC controls for over 20 years. Uh, she knows with them. So an application with application engineer, the company isn’t a identified with here, here, so I’m having trouble find Ellen a GL we mentioned and sheriff [inaudible]. Uh, but anyhow, these, uh, the rest of them are here on your website. And the important thing that I caught after reading each bio here and there, the comments he made were, you know, it’s not about them. I mean, here they are, they’re getting some spotlight, you know, they’re getting some recognition for an incredible career and they take that opportunity to defer that attention to other women in the industry, but also the industry itself. And it’s a great place to work. It’s a, it’s a very serious, uh, exciting, challenging profession. And we had the one reference on the number of percentages. 1.4% of our industry are Tracy building automation industry is comprised of women. So there’s certainly growth there. We need, we need more, we need more resources, we need more intelligent young people in the business. And we hope that the, uh, you know, the opportunity for women, uh, in the Hac Bas continues to improve and we develop more programs, more recognition to achieve them. Actually, I’ll just want to at that point, just a quote of thing from my editorial here and it’s called propagating our people power is an ongoing challenge to grow our industry are younger. We need to get our message out that we are an exciting industry in which young folks can make a difference and offer them job crafting and promote job flexibility as the game change or to attract them as first adopters.

Ken Smyers: We tend to bear the brunt and the cost of the education curve, but we’re the ones that eventually make new technologies affordable, accessible to all. We need to tell the world why they want to be part of our passion. And I think this is just an underlying message of us all is that we need to get this kind of information out to the, uh, the universities and colleges and this whole concept of job crafting is a, is a real thing that attracts, uh, the folks they don’t want. They don’t want to us to tell them what their job is. They want to tell us what their job is going to be. And in that you’ll be amazed at, uh, the creativity that will come out of that discussion. Well, you just need to check out our [inaudible] podcast with that rep burrows and here at Norco because they are interesting group of cats. And I think that maybe one of the things, the alarm bells because of my head, when you say you got to let them decide their own job as you kind of think, well, you know, that’d be crazy. They wouldn’t want to do anything. But when you listen to guys like Brent and Aaron and talking to the other younger folks, there is fire. They’re going to work harder than anybody you got. That’s right. Yeah, that’s exactly it. That’s a difference. It’s a difference if we don’t change our attitude and how we, uh, in our appeal, I think we really have to change our appeal because we’ve been a pretty rigid industry in the past. And, uh, uh, and then in the of ways has been an old boys network and we have to certainly change that. And as we, as we invite more data scientists, more engagement specialists into our industry, uh, that’s what we’re going to need and will said. And in fact, everybody to put a sign in my front yard vote for Ken St Claire for a cause that, I mean seemed very, it sounds like you’re up on a soapbox, but you’re not in the, and it’s really, it’s refreshing. It’s fun. Uh, and I think we’re seeing the needle move. I think we’re actually seeing progress. I feel it. Like do your point about the project haystack, you can feel the momentum, the, the critical mass is growing. It’s getting bigger and starting to have magnetic and gravitational pulls. I think think we’re doing, I think this every time I hear you restate that, I like it because it’s becoming a more honed message in a more relevant message and includes more important aspects that include, uh, in the drop crafting thing. I read that, you know what, I’m still kind of, to be honest with you, I was like Erica, first, the concept of allowing somebody to decide how they’re going to do work at your business.

Ken Smyers: Uh, it certainly, uh, challenging for people over certain in certain cultural references in ages two to, to deal with. But I agree with you and, and the biggest example I remember that was it. A Johnson controls ABCDs conference meeting down there, uh, live in Arizona. You were there, you were there. And the woman had expressed to us that the Johnson had invested so much money in recruiting the top talent in the world, not just in North America but the world. And yet they were, they were losing a certain percentage after two years and then, then the out briefing, you know what, when they terminated their positions and they were leaving, they get the person there. And he sat down and said, what was the biggest problem? And it was, it was remarkable how was the first time there were four generations of people in the same work environment. You actually had people from all these different generations, you know, and how the class, but the biggest example was when the senior executives, CEO’s walking through the office kind of surprise visit and he saw over half the people in the office on their phones and playing with some, some sort of smart device. He went back and was furious at the operations managers and what’s going on or any page people would come and play games. You said they’re not playing games, so they’re not playing games at all. There are computer systems are retardedly slow and they’re going to get, they use in their purse or you know, the bring your own device to get the information they need to do their jobs. Because we’ve requested a, an upgrade to our network and our system. So it just showed how the polarity there of understanding that senior executive not really truly understand that new technology was bringing his people online quicker than what they were providing them works out. So yeah, I got a question for Canton, Claire, because I think, and I don’t know yet data point on this or not the, we get one of our data science working on it. So one of the things is the little fearful for me with sort of, you know, roll your own job so to speak, or uh, you know, creating on job is it, the other thing that I’m understanding is that PR, they’re going to change careers four or five or six times anyway, regardless. And you said something canceling Claire, that is so true. And my business, for me to get somebody trained where they can be useful to somebody else, I have at least a quarter of a million dollars invested in. So, you know, I’m just wondering, have you heard that? I mean, are they going to stay even if you let them have with what they want to have, are they still gonna stay? And if not, is it fair to say, Hey, uh, we’re going to let you sort of create your own job, but in return for that, you’re going to guarantee x amount of years that you’re going to be here because the cost to get them up to speed where they can be useful is so high.

Ken Sinclair: Okay. There’s a lot of questions there and I’ll try and try and get a lot of answers. The first point I want to make is this, uh, the, uh, the job crafting fits in very well with the, you don’t know. What you don’t know is when you hire this person, they have some incredible skill that you don’t even know about and it’s not on your agenda. So you don’t care. And they happen to be the world’s greatest salesperson or the greatest PR person in the world. Uh, and they, they love people they love, they love, they’ll do all the education things for free because that’s, they love doing that. Uh, so it’s a point that out as one of their job, crafting a super powers, uh, then then that changes, uh, how, how, that’s going to go back to your back to the thing. How do we keep them if, if they’ve defined their own job, they’re more likely to stay in it. And what they will do again is they, we’ll recraft their job. And so after a period of one or two years at that point that they’re being restless, they’ll come back to you and say, I want a new deal. I want to recraft my job because I’m, I don’t like this part of my job. I love this part of my job. How can we recraft it that works for the company? So this is, this moves us forward. The other thing that I think everyone kind of misses is that when you invest in training somebody, um, the power of where that person reappears in industry, people hardly ever walk out of our industry once they come in. And I think that’s a big message to, uh, to these young folks that are looking, uh, should I come into the automated intelligence? Uh, industry, uh, is if you take our track record, people change jobs because they want more money, they want to move to a new location. They have a million reasons, but they don’t, uh, they don’t leave the industry. The fact they don’t leave the industry. Is your education really wasted? Because now I’ve got a person that used to work for you for four years, three years, five years. He goes to a new company, he knows your company inside out. He’s probably, if it goes to a systems integrator or something, he’s probably going to use your products. It was probably the best investment you ever made. And I think that’s what a brand is filing radice finding that this people are very true. They’re, uh, they’ve actually had very, very few turnovers in their 30 folks. Uh, and the ones that have gone are basically, they’re a consultant and they’ve gone to organizations where they still use ses as a consultant. So isn’t that kind of Nice to have one of your people inside of one of those companies that are helping you sell your wares? So cool. Musha how that goes.

Ken Smyers: Well that’s an in that situation. Yeah. I guess an advantage more than likely than not what happens to guys like me and Kenny theaters, we invest the money and, and get somebody up to speed and like say 250, $300,000 into it and in one of our competitors on the distribution side comes along and goes, okay, now get a trained person. They offer them 20 or $30,000 more, which is nothing because they don’t have to pay to train them and there, you know, but that, that problem’s been around since day one. I don’t think that’s, you know. Okay. I saw, I saw your experiment in the seat. I knew I needed him to come back with it because, uh, the, the, uh, it’s happened two or three times. I think the point being made. Uh, Ken, again, I applaud your, your spirit and, and I also had recently heard something similar about the benefit. The benefit is not a selfish benefit. It’s an industry, it’s ubiquitous benefit and, and the more people that get into a certain level of expertise at the whole industry benefits from it. And complete the industry that we all live in and which, uh, I think we talk about things and we get close to some real interesting challenges that our industry is facing. And one of them is that we don’t do a lot of this ourselves. We don’t get whatever the newest trends are with this job. Crafting wonder if we don’t get this stuff in place, we don’t get people involved and they don’t come with all this expertise is going to be taken from us. I, I my, my brain screws, I found a blanket of technology, this kind of move real slow, real slowly fog like a cloud and it’s coming over top of us and it’s looking down and what they can extract from industry so that if we don’t push up and we don’t develop the, the talent, we don’t develop the expertise in the IT skills or whatever, we don’t push back and at least, you know, put some kind of, you know, ceiling on how far we’re going to surrender a lot of our data and a lot of our industry then we’re to blame. So I think whatever makes sense to make the industry stronger, make it more attractive, get our share of resources and intelligent people involved in it and then let them start pushing, uh, their talents through our building automation industries and through even manufacturers I think are, are, are, are not doing well. They’re not, they’re not coming to the forefront as the big mighty five that they used to to put stakes in the ground and said, this is our, this is our domain, this is our, this is our industry. We’re seeing just extraordinary push from some of the multibillion dollars trillion dollar companies that looking over top and like a, you know, like a satellite. They can see, they could do an x ray into our industry and see exactly what they want and they’re, they’re putting things into place to get the data. And so I think, you know, the things that you’re doing here in this thing, this, this, this, this June edition does, is it makes it brings to the center stage where are we can make improvements, learn things and move forward and make better decisions. But I think the job crafting a would be something that we should keep coming back to and get some examples cause, uh, I think it’s a fascinating concept, but again, being, being, uh, in my generation and whatever, I still have, I have an encumbered or encountered that use case that really we could take an export. So yeah, this is definitely how we could do this here or do this there.

Ken Sinclair: Okay. Well I wrote, wrote an article and called job crafting our industry ambassadors and uh, uh, this kind of came out of, uh, uh, going to Detroit and we’re looking at what the bedrock people were doing. And the, the thing that amazed me is how well they sold what it was they were doing and what the other side of that that hit me on the head is how bad a job we do as an industry selling what it is we do. I mean, you got your little company and you do what it is you do, but how do you, how do you basically sell that to the IT industry? How do you sell that to, uh, consultants? How do you sell that whole, you need this industry ambassador who’s basically just enthused as like your product, but he’s also is able to answer all of those questions and how the new people are going to go. The big advantage of allowing these new job crafted folks into your, uh, organization is a, they basically start to tell you what, how they see your organization. And it’s like, oh my God, we don’t want to look like that. Well, that’s how you look to me. Am I missing something? And I think that’s how the change will occur. We, we’ve got to change. There’s no doubt are the, the, the way we do businesses is going to turn in, turn round radically, uh, um, bringing these new people and we’ll make it change quicker. Having ambassadors who basically can explain the, uh, the essence of what our companies do and how we fit into the new, a new direction, the new millennium, I guess, of, of how this is all going to come together, uh, is important stuff I think. And we’ve got, uh, all I know is that if we kind of keep involving these people in it, it’s going to go a different direction. Uh, but we still have our core values. All of a sudden they start asking the questions as well, how do I, how do I connect this to a Honeywell valve? And then, uh, yeah, okay. Now I suppose to connect those two about what’s about, yeah, that’s right. That’s right. But, but we, we need to build bridges between, uh, where are we going and where going to happen to us? Cause I think, yeah, that’s the other thing is the cloud that, uh, Kenny sees coming. If you’re not doing anything, it’s going to, it’s just going to fall on you and, uh, absorb you. If you’re, if you’re there to meet the crowd and you’ve got it all figured out, how you’re going to fit into this new, uh, we were kind of a environment. Um, I think it will be a whole lot easier transition. I like that. Yeah. Good. And I think part of it is you get, you gotta say informed canting Claire’s obviously, you know, Notre dominance in queer, you’re, you’re out front, you’re sort of shedding lights and the dark corners that we have a head. And, and I would say that you’re probably not going to figure this out right away. And what you figure out is probably going to, you have to refigure it out as you go forward. Because I think that’s one of the concepts we have as there are no more constants. So I think one of the strategies you’re going to have to adopt is you’re always going to have to look and you’re going to have to question, are we relevant? How are we plan? What’s, what’s, what needs to happen now? And again, I think that’s where your younger people can be a great barometer for you. But then they get all like Brad white and you know, you know, Brad’s an old guy now, so you gotta you gotta you gotta go younger.

Ken Smyers: That happened fast, Huh? Yeah, that’s right. The old guy here and like, no, I can’t. To your point and you know what, you’d have been proud of me cause I used the auto didactic learning, uh, in, in a meeting the other day and people definitely mouths dropped open this again. And I was saying about how the adjusted time learning and how the concept that we were playing with was how do you provide remote support to, to a diploid field in anything, not just, you know, uh, HVC of building automation but medical mining, whatever. There was a couple of really sharp people in there, how they were using a wearable technology to solve some of the things back when Eric and I were falling this, uh, with the, who’s got the glasses from Google glass, Eric that we interviewed, he’s Lorenzini. Yeah, there’s ones any out. So that was probably seven, eight years ago and now to see some of these use where these people were using this technology. And I see, I see that coming in our direction too. I can’t help but think that could solve so many, so many things. So if you want to see your book, I’ll buy the car. Yeah. A couple of sessions going on there. Can you tell me what you got to happen? Yes. I’ve got a great one called autonomous interactions, integrating the occupant experience into smart buildings and it’s part of the systems integrator a summit. Uh, and I get, they give me the dream team. I’ve got a Scott Cochran, I’ve got the CEO a comfy, and I’ve got the, uh, product, uh, expert from this deck. And then they give me 30 minutes to use all of this talent and a at the end of the day. So it’s kind of a mixed, mixed message, but, uh, I’m sure it’s going to be an exciting presentation, uh, later. Uh, the next, next day I believe it is, uh, we have a session connecting to the enterprise, the fast world of h Vac. And I’ve got the Joseph, um, of Amador consulting out of California is speaking with me. We’re both going to try and talk about that. And if you kind of let your mind’s just roll all the things we’re talking about, uh, are now falling on the OEM, the original equipment manufacturers, and they have to, uh, figure out, uh, where they’re going to use backnet, whether they’re going to use wireless, where they’re gonna use Bluetooth, uh, whether all of these things, uh, that they didn’t really have to deal with.

Ken Sinclair: So they’re looking to us for advice as to how they should be done. Uh, it’s gonna be an interesting time for sure to real calm.

Ken Smyers: Well, we’ll see. So listen, sort of summing up, cancelling Claire’s June issue is out. Uh, again, one way to know what you don’t know and then eventually know is to follow automated and hopefully control trends. Can we will be seeing you, uh, at rural, I’m kind of come up in Nashville. It’s still not too late to get there. We have a discount code on the Control Trans side if you want to go. So with that cancer [inaudible] thank you so much.

Ken Sinclair: You’re welcome.

Eric Stromquist: All right, Kenny, as always, great stuff from Ken Sinclair, you got a couple more important things you want to make sure that the community’s aware of before we hop hop. So let’s, let’s hit it.

Ken Smyers: Sure. Real quick, have new options, enterprise and Proton, a version two. Dot. Four dot six released, uh, and this has critical updates for OEE and proton two dot four dot six. So for all the RPG folks out there, please get this a software update loaded up as soon as possible. And also we have the Niagara Four in London. 2019 will be held June 9th through the 11th if Park Plaza Westminster. And that’s going to be a another great European forum. Another great show. I’m one on the website. They’ve got some great speakers and a lot of good things. Uh, mark p talked at length, Springer hadn’t over there and they’re excited. Uh, so we, we’re, we’re enjoying seeing this inner inner play between North America and Europe and now small and Kenny and I would have gone, but our wives won’t let us. They say enough is enough. So, all right, well that Kenny, I mean, great. You get to go to London, check it out. Hopefully mark be taco be are in field reporter in London and then we’ll be able to get you information on that as well. We will be at real calm I the cotton. That’s one thing we’ll be reporting on for sure. So if you happen to be going to that conference, please come up and introduce yourself to us. Kenny and I love meeting people that listen to this show. I’d he liked to be on the show. You can click on a link on the right hand side of the website called [inaudible] guest on the show and we’ll get you on. We’ve got currently have about 15 people lined up, so we’re gonna have a lot of interesting guests coming up.

Eric Stromquist: Uh, and then Kenny, again, a special shout out to our first sponsor, DG luxe is back. And here’s a trivial pursuit question for you to Kennedy spires. How many control trends award winners did they have? Do they have for being the best visualization platform of the year? How given three is more than one and less than 103? You’ve got it. They went three times. And I have a feeling that, uh, now that we, you know, I have a feeling we’re gonna hear a lot more from those guys. They are we engaging with our community. So be sure to check them out. Remember there’s a free demo there and if you’re actually being a sponsor for one of the shows, again you can reach out to us at CT or controlled trends, marketing we’ve got a limited amount of sponsors who are willing to put up and uh, hey, Kenny and I were going to start paying some bills now we paid our dues and now we’re going to pay our bills. So if that can Smith special thanks again to our sponsor, DG luxe and to our guests as we can graph from automated Be sure to check him out. And the June episode is up. So remember Kenny Smyres Bebo stay in control, be relevant and job craft something it either indeed Kenny Smyres.

Ken Smyers: Well, there’s also thumbs up. Let them live, right? He come see you. Oh yeah. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible].


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