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Episode 308 ControlTalk Now The HVAC and Smart Buildings Podcast

Eric Stromquist: Do you suffer from alarm fatigue? Well four out of five facilities managers iand HVAC controls professionals do. So what exactly is this insidious disease and how can you cure it? Hi, I’m Eric Stromquist from controltrends.com and stromquist.com. And on this week’s episode we’re going to dive deep and into alarm fatigue and how you can solve it. Our guest this week is a young integrator out of Atlanta, Brent Burrows, he’s a young gun. So Brent is going to be with us. The whole show is going to be fantastic. We get Brent’s perspectives which are just absolutely stellar. So the other thing you need to know is that controlledtrends on our youtube channel, controlltrends smart buildings, youtube channel. We’ve started a new video series called HVAC tech school and it’s designed specifically for the HVAC technician and we get into everything from how to size a valve to how to troubleshoot a gasregulator and topics specifically for the HVAC technician. So take a minute, subscribe to the Youtube Channel. All right, relax. Enjoy the show.

Eric Stromquist: Alright here we go. One, two, three. Welcome to ControlTalk Now, the Smart Buildings podcast for the week ending March 24 2019 this is episode this is the show where we talk about all things smart controls, HVAC controls and pretty much anything else we want to. And I tell you what, I’ve got two legends today. One is the one, you know, Ken Smyers, the man, the myth, the legend, the control man from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And joining us today is a legend in his own right is ControlTrends Young Gun Brent Burrows, from Atlanta, Georgia. Brent is with Entek.. He’s one of the rising stars in the controls industry. And if you were at the 2018 CONTROLTRENDS AWARDSawards, you know that Brent was inducted into The Young Guns class of 2019. So fellas, welcome to the show.

Eric Stromquist: Well thank you Eric. Yeah, you took away all my firepower I suppose to get some of that introduction on Brent Burrows. But uh, yeah, we got a real live young Gun here and uh, it, it, it’s so good to see the right, it looks like the type of guy who’s going to be taking our place one day. So he’s, he’s learning, he’s got some great background. He’s a true integrator, does everything from the programming side of it. And it was all about analytics, but he could do, you could do the terminations to make stuff work. So that’s a welcome to the show Brent.

Brent Burrows: It’s good to have it. And that’s what they’re talking about on the show every once in a while. I really appreciate it guys. And uh, yeah, actually the only real thing I have in my office, the Home Office here, uh, you know, I may have to make up some more awards for myself or some certifications.

Eric Stromquist: No, no young guns. Pretty much all you need man. And now you’re 60 and a young gun or 65. I can send Claire and a young gun then you’re doing really, really good. Okay. Brent man would move. You know, we’re talking about young guns and may one of the wraps that the young guns, the millennials get his man, they just can’t be on time. I know this year here, but tell us about our other guest where is he?

Brent Burrows: who else was supposed to be on the show with us. Uh, I, that’s going to be my new cohost, Aaron Gorka. Ah, I’m not exactly sure where Aaron is now. Maybe they don’t do daylight savings time in Canada or different things. He didn’t, he didn’t change his clock around.

Eric Stromquist: Right. Well, in fairness they are, and man, he has been traveled a lot here and Gorka from ANT technologies, one of the hardest young working guys in the industry. Uh, he is, uh, does the podcast, next generation innovation and brand. I guess the big news is you’re going to be joined and Aaron as his cohost.

Brent Burrows: Yeah. Um, so, um, I had been reading some stuff lately and you know, I listened to you guys on a control talk now on iTunes and I’d always wanted to get into pocket casting and uh, and it just so happened I was featured on a, on an episode, um, a few months back and just really enjoyed it. I’ve worked with Aaron, we actually use aunt technologies, um, to do a track or project side. And uh, so me and him get along and you know, we vibe well. So I reached out to reach out to you and was like, Hey, what do you think this idea? And uh, and you were all for it gave Aaron a call. He was excited to have a cohost. So that’s what we’re going to be doing.

Eric Stromquist: Well, I can’t wait for you guys to take to work together. Aarons just doing a fantastic job so far and it’s kind of fun with the cohost, you know, so the, but if you’re going to get good at this, you have to practice saying this right off the bat. The man, the myth, the legend, let me hear you say it because if something ever happens to me, you know, it’s going to be between you and Aaron to step in. But Kenny is very picky about who gets to be his is to introduce them. So one time, Brent, you’re on, here’s your audition,

Brent Burrows: here’s the audition, alright, we’re on control. Taught now, you know, and in memory of the late, great. Eric, strong quick. No, he’s in a better place now. But I am your new cohost and I am going to introduce the man, the myth, the legend

Ken Smyers: Ken Smyres take it over again. Right. That was awesome man. He passed it. He might, he might not even wait for me to die, man. He might just nice. Did you guys read the second brand? You just put no, he might. He might give me the boot right after the show did. That was a little too good bread, but well listen dude, before we get into more of the show, talks about what you do and, and in tech, I’ve known your dad for years and a, you guys have a fabulous company, but, but talk about about Entek and what you guys do.

Brent Burrows: Uh, so in tech where our ar can about a local, regional, regional and a national company, uh, have handled, you know, many national accounts over the years. Uh, so we have that side of the business and then we have more of our, uh, what I’d call our local and core business here in Atlanta. Um, we specialize in commercial office space. Um, but you know, also do, you know, hospitals, industrial work, really anything you need, um, we can provide the service and the expertise to work in those areas. So we do anything ranging from, you know, mechanical service, installation retrofits and then, you know, hopping into the controls, the building automation, you know, H Vac, lighting, integration, all of that stuff. And we even do system access controls everywhere. So in tech really is a great one stop shop to fill all your building needs.

Ken Smyers: Yeah. One of the things that I saw on the site and we’d talked offline, there is analytics and the impact we have one of our posts we’ll be talking about here as we review the posts. So you’re actually a delving into analytics now. Tell us about some of your experiences so far. What do you think? Is that, is that the next great a goldmine to dig into?

Brent Burrows: Well analytics, no, it’s, it’s been around, um, in, in the HVAC industry for, for a little while now. And it’s kind of, you know, it’s interesting, you’ll go to these conferences or you know, you’ll read stuff and you’ve got, you know, you got kinda these bud buzzwords or one of the big ones that are, and you know, when I kind of look at buzzwords, there are a lot of terms that people throw around, but then they’ll just kind of throw it around and they don’t know the meaning of it and they’re just like, oh yeah, Iot and analytics and, uh, and you’ll just see them, they pop up a lot of conferences, but, uh, but you know, really, uh, been seeing analytics get hammered for the last couple of years now. And basically, you know, one of the great things that you can kind of, they’re doing in the industry now, you know, what, you know, everything being more standardized, like, you know, backnet lawn, um, you know, different protocols come then normalizing the data. And then a, you know, a huge one that I know you guys have talked a lot about and they got the big accounts coming up is haystack. Um, you know, basically being able to take all the data in your building, you know, sensor information, uh, whether it’s, you know, discharge temps, she knows zone temps, uh, you know, all those things and you’re building lighting levels, all this stuff and take it in and get that data. So you kind of get to that point with an integration and it’s like, okay, well let’s just say, you know, I got a 10 story building, uh, so, you know, got 10 air handlers, chiller plant, and then, you know, depending on the level of integration, let’s say I’ve got 20,000 data points in my building, you know, what are you really doing with that? They’re there are, they’re acting out there and they’re just doing their thing. But you know, unless you can hire somebody 24, seven to watch those sites and be like, oh, this is doing this, this is doing this. Um, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to keep track of it. You kind of get into this, uh, you know, very responsive state. Um, you know, trying to manage the building. It’s not forward thinking. It’s not really effective. So analytics comes in and does, is it basically, it’s like, you know, it is, it’s, it’s a 24, it’s 24, seven program that looks at your building, looks at your data and can alert you to the issues going on. And then also in some cases make responsive writes back to correct issues.

Eric Stromquist: Well, that’s well said. Well said. And then I think one of the things that Kenny has sort of picked up early on in, and you were talking about sky spark a little bit because that’s what you’re working with. But, uh, you know, for years back, even when your dad and I were doing this stuff, you know, those old guys, I mean you could always alarm, right? But it got to the point that he had so many alarms, just like my emails, you just become null and void to me just don’t pay attention to anymore. So it seems like one of the things analytics allows you to do is to write rules, for example. So if something goes out of temperature for a while, you could give an expert at a time before it sends out an email or an alarm. You could also maybe we’d send a command to say, hey, try to reset it or whatever before you do that. And so are you finding that that’s driving some of your customers interest into it or her? What sorts of things when, when they say analytics, like I said, it’s a buzz word, but when they come to you or do they actually know what they want her, it’s just, hey, I want an analytics package and you shouldn’t have to talk him through it.

Brent Burrows: Uh, so it, it’s interesting you were talking about, uh, my dad, uh, uh, actually met with him this week and he brought up some of the alarming going on from the 90s, and he was, uh, so, uh, I won’t name them, but you know, big retail client, um, and they, you know, obviously they have sites all around the country and, uh, they had like a fax machine that sat on the side of this room and this thing continually like it reports and the, I think they actually set up a system where it just like fed into like a dumpster or shredded all it did for 24 hours a day. And they were like, he was like, what is that? There was like, oh, that’s the, uh, that’s the alarm matrix. Yeah, I remember those things. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but you don’t know the, to Eric’s point, uh, I think, um, we’ve seen several, uh, programs now coming out like controls, condoms, coming up with Detroit with the Cochrane supply, Scott Cochran and his team put together this thing. Raven, where you could really, you could eliminate anything. You didn’t want to hear all the chief, you know, and just, just get to the nuggets that you needed to know. And then they teamed that down so much that it would be in a proximity presentation. So top chef, chef get that right. We don’t want people to think, okay, go ahead. I’m sorry, but God, we got that quick. I’m sorry I couldn’t, I’m spit balling here too, but no, go ahead. Saving, saving, saving. Um, so the, the thing that Scott Cochran believed in is it Derek’s point that we’re so overwhelmed with this is data being pushed at us that we ignore it. Now again, we’ve always self defense mechanisms. We turn off our phones, we don’t have to hear the pagan, you know, and then, but then you really could miss that one really important alarm because you’re so, you know, unconditioned to respond to it. The uh, that stuff became packing. They had say, generate so much. I. Dot. Matrix printing stuff that no, he didn’t shred but then that shredding to him went back, got recycled back in the, in the shipping department. But I’m so yeah, so a, the raven thing was a real clever a response. So that not only did you restrict the amount of alarms you got, but they were, they were sent specifically to who needed it and it reduced all that additional traffic.

Eric Stromquist: So yeah, Brent is a cool app if you haven’t seen it. It actually works like with you know, notifications on your iPhone and stuff like that. So you can just set up just the notifications you want to see. So, uh, Scott Cochran’s one clever dude and controls con’s going to be a great conference and uh, we get, we actually have a discount code for that, don’t we county. So we should do, if you put any controlled trends when you registered and put it in a controlled trends, you get a 10% discount and that you’ll get 15 but I know it’s just a matter of time for you blonder and it’s going to cost you an alternate code, a code word. You get 20% off if you mentioned chafing cause that’s right. So you are going to be a great cohosts. He’s good. He’s picking right up on this. Uh, but uh, but so what else? So the analytics, are these primarily the facilities managers asking for this or should it go on up higher? Cause I know you, you know, Dana and the rest of year or down to the rest of your sales staff deals at the c level suite a lot. Is it mainly being pushed down from the c level suite or consulting engineers asking for it? Or how is this even coming into consciousness? Well, it’s a, it’s interesting. So I’m going to go back real quick to the original question that you asked and mentioned something that, uh, you know, it Kinda all goes along with, uh, with the APP. You’re talking about the raven, the alarms, and you mentioned that, you know, just kind of getting, you know, hounded with all this data. And it really does, you know, whether it’s, you know, cause I’ll, I’ll copy myself on the emails most of the time for the alarms. And you know, sometimes it’ll just, I think I went through this morning, there was a point that went in and out of alarm, I didn’t delete like 600 emails.

Brent Burrows: You get into the point of getting alarm fatigue. So yeah. So in the process, let’s just say that you have something that does, does alarm and you get, you know, over the course of three or four months, 600 emails, you’re going to be like, oh no, just delete all those. Don’t worry about that. And sandwiched in there and one or two of those. Yeah. What was important data. So that’s why it’s important, you know, when you’re doing the integration is the freestyle. Yeah. Make sure you set up, you know, your alarms and your, so there are going to be alarms that happened, but you know, maybe just only send out, you know, prioritize with your alarm classes. Um, but, but then to get back to a, to what you’re mentioning about what level do you kind of see the requests from analytics coming? Um, I think it really depends. Uh, so a lot of what we, uh, we deal with customers we deal with in the Atlanta market. Um, you know, we’ll go into existing buildings and whether, you know, we’re upgrading them from, you know, DDC from the 90s or just straight pneumatics and everything, uh, you just hit it. There are different levels of involvement from, you know, different companies and, you know, different positions. So, all right know, I’ve got to figure out what’s going on and I cannot, I don’t have the time to pour through this site and I don’t want to, you know, pay a monitoring company, you know, just every, every month. Because you know what, that’s great. You know, the, there were a few people that we followed around in Atlanta or would go to and there was like, oh yeah, we paid this company $2,000 a month. Just watch this. It’s like, but it takes you six hours to get him on the phone. And then sometimes they do it, sometimes they don’t. But they’ll always let you know when that checks in the mail. The, um, the analytic thing, one of the big impulse or impacts was when Niagara JACE started coming with 25 free analytic points to get you a taste of it, you know, and then we started to see people dabble at it, but we really didn’t have a whole lot of, uh, you know, takers. And then once they got into it, uh, so it all became, you know, a basically about templating it. But, uh, the Phil fearless fills Zito had a really nice, uh, extract on when he did a synopsis on end for about what he said that what they added to inform and to analytics too. Dot. Oh, was that make capabilities where the preexisting analytic data model it was in, it was inherent embedded a base algor algorithm library and then a realtime on premise analytic control. So one of the things that we saw now was that people, if they wanted to start to dabble, they got a good free tastes that, or a complimentary tastes of analytic points that they could take a couple of points and do exactly what you’re saying. Pick out the top, maybe ones that you’re getting those multiple alarms, you know, and then have it so that you could control the amount of alarms that you got from that point. So, uh, again it’s, it’s still, it’s just touching the, uh, the, you know, the top of the iceberg because a sky founding of course was the, the industry leader. I mean they basically defined analytics to us. Well, no, it’s cool. We can, I’ve got a question where I think we might have a new vocab word here and I wonder if you’ve heard of this before. No, no, no, no, no, no. Alarm fatigue has the first time I heard that if you heard the term alarm fatigue before, actually I have this, but I heard it said in that perspective, that context. But you’re right, I mean, so I think Brent is coach and he’s got his first new phrase, alarm fatigue. Okay. We’re, we’re going to give you a nickname or get you a tee shirt. It’d be Brent Burroughs alarm fatigue. So I did write that down though. So that’s a great one brand. I like that a lot. So bread for our integrators out there who may be, have not gotten into analytics or you know, Skype specifically sky foundry, um, kind of walk them through. I mean, how difficult is it? Is it to get started with it because know there are a lot of integrators, outdated, heard of analytics and maybe you know, think they can do it or don’t think they can do it, but what do they need to know? If you’re just starting to scratch your ears, assistant center grader and you haven’t worked with analytics, sort of walk them through it. Uh, so obviously, you know, um, like the sky spark, um, sky spark software, you know, like anything else, uh, to be able to sell it, you know, you have to get signed up with a distributor, all that. Um, so, you know, first need to find somebody that can not distribute it. And it’s really important, you know, when you’re kind of going into a new software, I believe this with anything, is to make sure that you’ve got a good support channel. Um, you know, like in between you and then, you know, and sky foundry, which I’ll say for sky foundry, their online database of like help, documentation, everything. It’s phenomenal. Um, I have used that a ton. It’ll actually basically walk you through setting up site, uh, comes with a great demo site so you can look at how everything’s set up and then, you know, reverse engineer. Cause you know, as a, as a systems integrator or you know, anything else, it’s, it’s similar. You know, it’s, it’s just like physically, you know, kinda like building an engine or something. How do you really figure out how an engine works? Well, take one apart and put it back together and you’re going to have a good idea of what those components do, where they go and everything. Same thing applies to the software. So, uh, getting started there. Go ahead. Eric Stromquist: No, that’s a good analogy. And you know, and I think that’s where you’re talking about the division of labor and, and the, and the support structure, you know, some of the, some of the great products. And so the great applications that have failed, uh, did so not because it wasn’t a great application is because people didn’t take to it well, they didn’t have a support structure, he didn’t have that engaging support that you’re talking about. And some of these new people, new products and solutions we see coming in, especially in North America, you know, the, the contracting mentality as they wanted so they can understand it and they want to be able to do that physically create an analogy. So this is how you put it together and it’s how you take apart and by the time you do that, you know, the steps are all procedural and the methodologies very consistent and then you get really good at it. I think the, the commitment, this guy foundry is significant, but once you get there, you’ve got it’s money well spent and you just, it’s a gold mine, right? Can, it will listen and Brent, this is a, that a, you’re going to probably have to do with Aaron Gorka called stable datum, right? Because we, as we’re assuming that our entire audience listening to the show right now understand what Skype boundary disguised park is. So Kenny, if you don’t mind, would you just give our audience just a quick overview of what it is because I think people have heard of analytics, they’ve heard of data, but they may or may not have heard of skies park. Uh, if they don’t listen on a regular basis. Kenny, let’s give our audience a little stable datum on exactly what guys foundry isn’t what sky’s parks are.

Ken Smyers: All right. Well, you know, I would recommend everybody to Google or not Google, but to come to our website control to trends. And then just to take a look at John Patsy or look at sky found in there because we have multiple videos of John explaining it, what it is through interviews or whatever. But essentially the synopsis, The Sky Spark is an open analytic platform from sky foundry that automatically analyzes building data from sensors, automation systems, meters and other smart devices to provide useful building insights, sky spark insights, help facility managers, building owners and business managers identify trends, issues, faults, correlations. And opportunities for cost reductions and building improvements. Uh, and then also the, the, the growth of it. You know, so we were asking about, you know, who wants it and how is it implemented? And it comes from all different dimensions. It doesn’t come from consistently the COO or the CTO or you know, a smart building owner. It comes from people that have problems that need them fix. So just give me an idea. There’s more than 10,000 facilities around the globe that are using sky spark right now. They analyze buildings, data over 650 million square feet of buildings. Imagine that. Then they went over a billion. And by the way, that’s further on, but commercial buildings, apartment buildings, apartment complexes, hotels, resorts, data centers, industrial facilities, educational campuses, government buildings, large multi-use retail spaces and other large complex facilities. But if you remember the one crazy thing about it is we start small with one building using the sky, spark and sky foundry or analytics, you know, because there’ll be other versions of analytics. But in order to get to the smart cities, you’ve got to start small. It’s a modular thing. So you’d go from one building building. Exactly. But this whole thing crescendos into a smart city where you’re, everybody is getting that data there knowing that usages and aren’t in and we’re occupancies are they knowing when they have about, you know? Right, right. And I think, you know, again, John Petze used to be president of tritium, one of the brightest guys on the planet. Great Drummer too. Buddy rich has nothing on John Petze. But uh, you know, we only all went sky spark first came out or sky founder first came out. It was kind of cost prohibitive almost just simply because to connect the data points together really required somebody to go in and link this to this, to this, to this, to this. But that’s all changed now. It’s gotten super formed. Super, Super Price Competitive Kenny because of drum roll. HAYSTACK CONNECT. I tried to download, try new vocab words. I need another cup of coffee. That’s a good one buddy. I know you want to do that. And Yeah, because again, we’re trying to promote project haystack to the best of her abilities and really get the community excited about it. But I think we’re getting other people excited about it. I think there’s people that are learning outside of the HVC, bas industry that understand that haystack tagging. For instance, we had Samsung, uh, from, uh, the smart car. Don’t trick me again here. Most of name again, can we need first and last name for try again? Go, go, go, go, go, go to the Control Trent website, highlight her name and then have Google pronounced that JMC futurist, right when, anyhow, she took the, the haystack tagging to heart and talk. It was an, you know, it’s, it’s just absolutely vital to eliminate all the friction and bring down to two. We’re belongs as quickly as possible. There should be cooperative. You ready for an analogy? Haystack tagging is to sky foundry every other analytics or control system as gasoline is to a car. What do you, what do you think about how, how bad is like, you know, uh, I mean, you know, and not another analogy. I think one of the great things about having haystack, it’s, it’s basically this organization that says, yes, you know, hey guys, instead of re reinventing the wheel, here you go, we’re going to give you the tools or instead of making all your own custom stuff, here’s the tools to do it. You know, it’d be kind of like every kind of like, you know, I guess it’s, you know, not using haystack tagging. I feel like doing your analytics to standardize it. It’s kind of like going back to the, you know, Dark Ages or the prehistoric times of, you know, where you just have different tribes and they have like all their own forms of communication. Like, you know, I don’t, most marriages, well, you know what I do, I think that’s going to, that’s going to work there because if you hear John pets he talking about, he actually gets mad, he’ll, he’ll start out real calm and mellow and hills. He’ll start saying, but, uh, his patients in the industry I think is waning because it’s a choice. And you know, again, a lot of people have, you know, big legacy investments and they’ve got, you know, look at corporations are run and, and they, they really truly have to control the rate of adoption and, and, and is it his money comes it. I mean we had the guy from Sweden tell us, you know, all these things could have been fixed many, many, many years ago if there wasn’t a, you know, an economic reason not to do it. So brand have an economic reason to get them right. Now where I am, Brent needs to know this, cause I know your listener brown button it Kenny. This is the part of the show where we come up with are conspiracy theories. Okay. Okay. No, no, no, no, no. And I want to do something right now too. It’s certain, Huh? Jam Fee. So that’s not sued. Sud h a JMT j a m t h e. Dot. The Jaffe. Right. This Suda Hey, you know what I practice, come on. Say it. And you know what? I’m going to sit on this one because I, I haven’t had a chance to write it down and sanded it out. But I think this is like a good idea for like a new bit.

Eric Stromquist: You should do Kenny Kenny’s words a week and put a word down and then have them like phonetically sounded. I know Kenny. No, no, we got one of this when Kenny’s word of the week. Shaef Chase, rub your face with a scarf or something and you scraped, I think he’s in a different context today, which is like the data was shaved off of the sound. No, it was to do with the wheat and, and the other stuff. Boys in the shaft, not the shape. You’re not going here. Let’s get back to those two words are a little too close. Well, you know what I think so. I have a lot of those. So look at that. That’s a good sign. That means that your brain’s working. Okay, so let’s get back to Brent. Meanwhile, back to Brent. So Brent, again speaking to integrators out there that maybe haven’t taken the punch to do an analytics and his specific way sky founder, you sort of walk them through the steps, you know, they can call Ken or Eric, that should be your distributor., STROMQUIST.COM And after you get with your distributor, what happens next? So after you get with your distributor, uh, hopefully they can set you up on SKY FOUNDRY Um, so you can get into the resources you can access. Um, it’s pretty cool once you get everything set up. Um, sky spark actually has a demo and all you have to do is just pretty much upload the demo and then you can go through all the steps, all the steps they give you online.

Brent Burrows: They give you like a five part, um, kind of do it yourself. Um, you know, set up the data points and you know, add the equipment, add the points, add the tags, go, go view the data and do everything. So you get practice, like kind of like we talked about putting something together. So you get practice doing that and then you start going, all right, I can see this, I can see how this will work. Uh, and then after you do that, you’re going to want to go to one of the sky’s spark, uh, analytics, uh, classes. Typically I think it’s like a two or a three day class. Um, they get you all set up on there. After that you are going to be able to, uh, to sell the product and uh, and really do it. Um, and one of the cool things is, is basically, you know, if I had to like look at it and you know, just look at, you know, your customer set and figure out 10 rules, figure out 10 things that you want to look for. You know, the last thing you want to do is be like, oh, I got to come out with, you know, 500 something rules or I’ve got to figure out how much, you know, k w port per square foot. You know, when people, uh, you know, have a Dell computer or laptop in there, it’s like, okay, just, just kind of back it off. Keep it simple to start, like one of the biggest ones, uh, that, that I see and you know, I see it around Atlanta a lot. You’ve got these, um, these old [inaudible] use that still have to use pneumatic a pneumatic actuators. So, and you’ll see that and you’ll see, you know, you’ll use a DDC controller, goes to a, uh, goes to a transducer and then that sends the air pressure pneumatic actuator and you know, it, they’ve, they have it that way because the cost to retrofit one of those, as you know, it’s like four hours and you know, maybe like a $340 part, you guys posted something a long time ago and I think strong Quist offered a retrofit part. It’s for those, uh, to basically take that internal damper and then change it over to, you know, have an external, yeah, it was, it was trying, I wasn’t sure if we were mentioning manufacturers or anything. So I remember that then. And we’ll, you know, we saw a lot of that too. Yeah, that was a, that was an excellent demo and I’m very successful to do, to kind of move things on. I don’t know. Hang on real quick. I can’t, if you don’t mind. There’s one other thing I wanted to sort of bring around because Brent, I think it was brilliant. You know all the rules come up with 10 you can, you can come up with, so for example, for our property management people out there, you got building a and it is using 50,000 kw per month. You’ve got building B, it’s using 25,000 kw month and you’ve got building c, which is just in 150,000 kw a month. Which one is most energy efficient? One uses the most energy. Well and you do that, that’s easy. But you know, basically it, you can Kinda, you can organize the data because you know, what if one is a single story building, how many square foot, how many people are occupied. So you, and part of the reason I brought that up was you used the term earlier, which for our owners out there who might not think this was, I didn’t think this way, it was explained to me part of what Brent’s companies able to normalize your data because oddly enough, the small, the one with the least amount you spend the amount of money on might be the most energy efficient, the one that you’re spending the most on because this maybe 10 times bigger might be your most energy efficient. So unless you can normalize it.

Eric Stromquist: And what I mean by normalizes taking random data points or data points, bringing them together and setting their criteria like square foot footage, occupancy times a number of people and that, so that’s a big part of us gotta be one of the first ones that you guys would go for. I would take if you have multiple facilities. Right. So, um, so I’ll go, I’ll go back. It was just kind of that the brief example with the damper, and I know I was kind of explained some technical stuff on it, but it’s, you know, like a real real simple rule is like, you know, and you can compare it, you know, how many VAVs PKI use, things like that. Kind of like you’re talking about. But you know, the big ones that you can see, you know, a Vav is it open at 100% not satisfying the CFM.

Brent Burrows: So either we’ve got mechanical problem, we’ve got a design problem, you know, somewhere in the chain. And also the biggest thing, one of the things I see the most money wasted on, like with that particular style of box is this thing has electric heat strips in it. So electric heat, huge energy user. I mean just unbelievable. So it’s got the heat going, right? Trying to satisfy the space and you’ve got a bad damper bladder and there that’s not in 600 800 cfm through. So I’m simultaneously heating and cooling space. I’m basically dehumidifying your space when you get to pay for it. As long as this thing has occupied and you know, put that over a 15 story building and let that happen, you know, uh, on a cup on each floor. And just remember that the first real calm I become, and you’ve met right? You know, Smith and he said that, uh, their biggest, um, why I got this one. Can I do this one? Okay. You just cause I don’t, I normally don’t know much about, I do know this. So Brandon, Darryl Smith, random Microsoft campus back when Kenny and I first met him, and this is the best example of alarm first as rules base did I ever heard. And what Daryl was saying was a, this huge campus, huge, huge energy bills. They never got an alarm because the Microsoft campus was the most comfortable campus. You could be anywhere. All those buildings were comfortable. They put in a program similar to sky’s bar and they realize the reason their energy was so high and the reason nobody complained about the temperature was that their heating and cooling ran at the same time to maintain temperature. They had no idea that was happening until they put the analytics package. And so then what happened, consequently, after that was, uh, you know, they fixed that problem. They started getting a lot of alarms and Bill Gates got mad at Darryl Smith. So there you have it. You have anything you want to add to that, Kenny? I’m sorry. No, no, no. It was, it was the whole thing we said to you, you know, some of the things that they were saying is the valve of the heating valve was clogged, blocked, open, you know, it wasn’t Seton properties. So then it was leaving too much heat into the space and an air conditioning or the, you know, Viv is letting, calling in. So the bottom line was that you could have no, uh, alarms are no complaints that nobody’s complained about the temperature of being too hot, too cold, but that’s not necessarily a good thing. So what they started to analyze, uh, was if the state changes doesn’t change over a certain period of time, that there’s reason for concern, something that should be going up and down based on different, uh, the different, uh, aspects of the building, different times of day, different whatever. But nothing should stay the same. No temperatures and stayed 72 for longer than maybe like 60 minutes. And if it does, that’d be one of the rules we’d say somebody needs to look at it probably got, you know, something’s going on there that you said requires some investigation. But um, I am, I’m a little bit concerned that we’re, we’re going to get the time, uh, isn’t slip away so we should throw in some of these posts so that they get more friends. Comments on your bread.

Eric Stromquist: This is part of the audition here. Now we’re going to go through some post of the week and you got to make it yet like really astute comments about them. Okay. I don’t want to suppress them cause you know, you’re, you’re a systems integrator and you bring like a different perspective. Absolutely. Is this relevant to your world or not? You know, what’s one posts you want to talk about? For now, we’ll just go kind of lighthearted cause uh, you know, again, the two and you know, nuggets to take away into some of this has kind of superficial stuff with like the next post you want to talk about and get Brent’s comments on is the, the new facility manager might be a robot. Uh, and how will artificial intelligence affect your building? We know from Ken Sinclair that artificial intelligence is common. It’s a real thing, how quickly they adoption rate’s going to be and whatever. Or is it happening with or without our knowledge? Uh, and he calls it automated, intelligent, not intelligence, artificial intelligence. So the question would ask you there is that you, do you think that artificial intelligence has a foothold already? Uh, w what’s the adoption rate with your end of the world or your from your perspective? Um,

Brent Burrows: so, uh, in, in terms of, of running buildings right now where we’re at and you know, Atlanta, Georgia, um, I haven’t seen a whole lot of artificial intelligence in a, and the particulars particular areas where at, um, obviously that’s the way am, I mean every, everything’s moving that way, you know, whether we still really haven’t seen a whole ton of, you know, a voice stuff come in to, you know, the building automation world. So I feel like you’re going to see that come in and then you’re going to see AI. But that’s kind of the analytics thing too, is, you know, and we were talking about earlier, you know, it used to be you’d pay somebody to monitor this and they would watch it and now you have a computer that’s doing it, you know, a, a program that that just looks at. It looks at rules, it compares the data, and then it gives you an outcome. So go ahead. So based on how you define artificial intelligence, in many cases, some of it’s already there, it’s just not called artificial intelligence. God was charging two grand a month to technical data. I mean he’s already been replaced by a robot. Right. Which is a shame. That’d be a sweet deal. So Eric, uh, so I got it said Jan, Jan. Okay. Now, so the next, the Kenny, he’s like, it’s not jam. J A M is Shanthi. It’s a softer version. Okay. So if we’re doing artificial intelligence, let’s take this thing to the next level. And we had this very intelligent futurist and she is the real McCoy. She is internationally, globally recognized for her, her understanding and divisions that are coming. You know what our world is going to look like in five 10 15 years. But she did this thing on smart buildings and powering smart buildings, smart cars and the whole idea of sustainable building, sustainable energy cars that are driving and they’re basically collect the energy, putting in a battery. The car gets to the building that it works, it’s parked at and plugs in and instead of the building powering the car up again, cars powering the building up in an emergency situation that you could really exploit this cause it’s just moving energy. You know, cars are literally collect the energy and then moving them to where they needed nick actually plug into a building. Um, not, not that we’re going to see this anytime soon, but what do you think that, uh, the Atlanta metropolitan area is that, is that kind of technology receptive? You see that? I know that a, with Eric, with your smart car, you’re a customer, your test, the, one of your biggest issues at first was the charging stations. They could be busy, it might not be available, but you know, it was, it was trying that new technology. Does it fit, do you see us moving a year end of the world there, uh, Brent taking, adopting that kind of technology or is it kind of an out there kind of like, I dunno, I’m sure had you asked the question, you know, 20 or 30 years I had like, had you asked when maybe Eric and my dad were working together a little bit, like, you know, hey, where are you thinking we’re going to be in 30 years with us in buildings? It’s like snack. I’d be met that it’s not going to matter. All our cars going to be flying around anyway. It’s kind of local conceptions out there. Oh, we’ll get to your point. I mean, I look at this thing every day and I’m all, I marvel over the iPhone every day because I just, I can’t get over it. Cause my wife’s German, she talks to her sister’s like we’re talking, you know, across the street. And it doesn’t cost a dime. They used to be my third biggest expense. You know, we had mortgage, car and then phone. Right. Well, you know, Kenny, I had been on my, I’m like, rephrase the question a little bit because you know, I think the car was just sort of an example of the fact that you could use a battery to power building and Nissan actually did with their corporate headquarter and a suit. The JMT talks a lot about, uh, about the fact that you can now contribute to the grid and said you’re just drawing off the grid. And I think a more Germane sort of, uh, uh, question might be do see a day where maybe

Ken Smyers: the batteries are powering the buildings. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, tech technology continues to evolve and to just things that you just never thought were possible. Kind of like, you know, like the analogy there of a, you know, thinking about a battery charging and building. I mean, you know, absolutely. It’s possible. What, you know, what Ken just talked about, you know, with that right there, I’m sure you guys saw him back in the, uh, you know, maybe even the 80s, the early nineties. Like what are the first cell phones look like? Where did the first computers, they’ll quite white mainframes hold clinic rooms and now this is more powerful than the first computer mainframe huge rooms that were created. I’m really glad you cleaned that up for me cause I’m not, hang on, hang on. I’m not done yet. I’ve got a Mike, my conspiracy theory and then you can come back to you Ken. So I have a conspiracy theory cat because Brent, you know, you guys hard Johnson controls is wanting the lines you handles was Honeywell on this tech Johnson controls is one of the largest car battery or manufacturers in the world. Okay. So you start thinking about that and then you put into the fact that Tesla developed something called the power wall, right in California. What that because you know, you could have the solar energy coming in but you pretty much had to use it or lose it. What the power wall, you were able to store it. Okay. So I think Johnson and Tesla are getting together right now. I think what’s going to happen is you’re going to have solar panels on the building. There’s going to come down to some sort of a power wall that will hold the charge, that will charge the battery and then the battery will charge the building. Well Eric, to your point, I think, uh, I’m glad you did it cause I was thinking the same thing. We know that Johnson controls made a major investment and batteries. And one of the scenarios we saw Brent was really cool was that, you know, uh, with a DC AC wars mobile. Derek and I used to cover the Westinghouse versus Tesla and how, uh, it was a power station thing who could transmit the power of the further Stacy one but DC. Now it’s coming back in. And many people were saying, why are we taking power, making it a scene and converting it back to DC inside of a building since every something inside of the buildings operating on DC. What about we put a big battery in the basement in, you know, some mechanical room or whatever and we power it up. And from there we power the entire building with 24 volts DC.

Ken Smyers: And then you have power over ethernet and we have all these really incredible ideas. But so to your point, and I agree with you 100%, it’s not, it’s just a matter of when we get the opportunity to deploy these technologies are here. It’s just, it’s in the economic constriction. It says the economic, you know, friction, you gotta, you gotta make money and people have to transition from one technology to the other. But it doesn’t mean it’s not going to have, it’s just the question of when. Right. So I, you know, it’s really interesting to about, um, you know, buildings doing that. Obviously it’d be much easier, you know, as with anything, um, you know, if you’re building a brand new building to be able to Spec that stuff and then absorb it into the cost of, you know, of doing the building as opposed to looking at a building that has everything that has ac powered, whether, you know, lighting, HPAC equipment, you know, literally everything and being like, all right, we’re going to rip all this stuff out and then we’re going to put all of this and, and it’s going to cost you, you know, x and whoever owns the building or she come managers of the building, it’s like, no, we’re not. It’s a great point, Brent and know that my father in law lives in New Mexico, right? And they used to subsidize solar panels, but then the electric company, conspiracy theory started, you know, not making as much money so they don’t subsidize any more. So now it’s cost prohibitive to do it. But I tell you what, I think, uh, I want to get back to Ed Tech and your dad a little bit because your dad is when I got to be kidding me, your dad is one of the brightest businessmen know. And when your dad would say is, if you want to have heard him say this over the years, you want to paint it blue, I’ll paint it blue. You want to back you on a battery power building, not give you a battery painted battery power building. Right. So, uh, uh, and I, and I think at the end of the day, it’s, this is, you know, a lot of conjecture on our part. It’s fun to talk about, but at the end of the day, uh, what’s going to make the most sense for the owners is what they’re going to do. Yeah. My favorite ones are listen to the Paul Oswald and listen to, uh, George Thomas from contemporary controls. The, these guys are the more senior faculty in our, in our industry and they say, you know, we keep talking about this absolutely wowed off the wall technology when we still don’t fix belts and we still don’t do it. Most primordial maintenance you need, uh, you know, and keeping the motors running and stuff like that. So I think what you have to do is you have to keep one foot on its tectonics. It’s moving and shifting when it applied. Yeah. Plate tectonics. There we go. Brent and we still have a vocabulary from you yet. What have we done? We got it. Tig. Hold on. Protect. Yes. Right. I’m sorry I got circled them when you said that. I will give you credit when I like something that somebody says something cool, I write it down and at the end of it when we have to write the show notes up or whatever, I can run through all these little circles, nuggets there and alarm fatigue is circled. We’re going to, we’re going to take this thing into a macro level again, and we’re going to shift gears and just security, cybersecurity. We’re going to go into your version of cybersecurity. How often you bump into it, what does it, what does it scare you to death or you got to, you got a handle on it. What’s, what’s going on from your perspective?

Brent Burrows: Um, you know, cyber security, obviously you now have extremely important, I would say as important as, uh, eh, as anything you’re, you’re really doing in a building, you know, as long as you know you’re not, when you’re putting in controls, you’re not just absolutely wrecking the equipment. What’s the, the other thing, keeping, you know, unauthorized people from entering your site? Um, if you can isolate it. That, and that’s the biggest thing was cybersecurity, uh, that I’m kind of saying, um, from our end is things need to be isolated. Um, so like you really do, you need to have like, you know, for your h Vac, building automation, security access, all that stuff. Um, like to isolate it if you can on, on separate networks. I mean, you know, you don’t have to look far, uh, with different, you know, cybersecurity issues and large retailers, whether it’s through, you know, the credit card scanners or you know, however these hackers get in to access, you know, a bunch of people’s personal data at places. Like it’s just kinda like, holy crap. I thought that was a very unimportant, this thing just turns the lights on, turns the lights off and now they’ve got access to, you know, social security numbers of all the data that we’re keeping over here. So, um, there’s some really cool products out there. I’m like, you know, one that y’all rep, uh, that, uh, yeah, that, that’s it. I really liked that. Um, you want to talk about security like that is that, that is the deal. Um, the, the ease access is, you know, not as much like, you know, you can’t just start grabbing a bunch of random devices and, and doing it. There’s got to be a little bit more prep work, but you want to talk about secure and a and manage like dad is awesome. So it’s not that expensive dye tee people. Cause I guess a part of the question would be are you running it up when you put a system or the it people now more concerned or they come, do you say you’re going to try to what to my network or I know you guys work on a different sort of size building and stuff like that, but uh, yeah, uh, I actually had a meeting with a, with a 19 manager, um, just just recently within the last couple of weeks. And he was wanting to know like a, you know, what are you going to do or how does this need to be set up and everything like that. And uh, it’s, it, it’s a good conversation to be able to have with them in person. Like don’t try and pass it off to someone else that isn’t going to be working on the technical side because it’s just that then things get misinterpreted and people get defensive. You’re not putting this on my network and all this, you know, it turns into like a little peon contest when you don’t need it. It’s just, you know, a good conversation to have. And that’s one of the things Tridium does a good job with is, you know, they have a, they’ve got it out there. I’m not sure what the most updated version is, but it’s called the hardening guide, which, uh, um, basically goes through and it’ll tell you how to most securely set up your system. And if you can go through that with an eye with, you know, manager or, or whoever, then everybody can be comfortable. All the data can all be out there. And then, you know, you make sure that you’re putting in the most secure option. You know, so ironic you said that because I sent that to somebody this morning. Um, the issues were on the audit trails and about, you know, uh, who gets into the system and then when I have as the Niagara for hardening, it’s from six 28, 2018. So I’m sure there’s one, uh, more recent than that, but you’re exactly right. It’s, uh, I think it’s a 48 page document. Let’s see. Yeah. And it really goes deep dives into a 42 pages. So, um, but what we have, uh, for, for the controlled trans community is we have a responsibility to keep, keep cybersecurity as a concurrent trend is the top trend. We post the NIST released in ist and they give us, you know, the checklists and take people on an individual level and organizational level, uh, you know, a corporate level and then a city level.

Ken Smyers: So we have two posts that I just want to bring them up real quick. One is the, a Schneider electric has a cybersecurity, a Webinar you can sign up for and it has a, a lot of great information. And then two, for the people that are really in the business dot have deep, we have a smart and secure city, the community challenge expo and Washington DC July 10th and 12th. And it’s about security. Cybersecurity on a, on a macro level. So, and ist the US Department of Homeland Security and sciences, the technology, are they basically the sponsors of it? It’s a free registration is free, but you have to preregister it’s required for attendance. You can’t just walk in there online and we have a hot button to it. But so cybersecurity is, you’re right. So Brent, Brent, you just hit three correct answers in a row. So we’re going to over and cybersecurity is one. It’s as important as anything else. We’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re working with now if we have to have a responsibility, we have to own that responsibility and learn about it. We don’t necessarily have the solution for it, but we can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Well said. Well said. Well, listen, dude, uh, let’s, let’s talk about a couple more things. A couple of other vets and then we’re probably going to need to hop off here. But, uh, where Brent, you gotta talk to your dad about this cause you want to go to this conference? Edi. Oh, easy. Easy. I know they call it easy time. What are the dates on these? Okay, you want to go to Amsterdam with this bra? Yes. Sounds great. Yes we do. It’s, it’s May 17th through the 19th, and it’s going to be in Amsterdam and it’s going to be an extraordinary event. We’re taking the lid off this thing now because, uh, there’s, um, the importance of it is growing. Uh, what ECI is doing is they’re going to really walk us through the roadmap and they’d been the innovators. It’d probably been the strongest leading innovator company of all the recent companies for just the, the ability to get things done quickly. Put an FSL server size to controller inside of a regular, you know, fit the build of a, of a know basically a controller that it’s core for core processors, quad core processors and, and, and it just sort of new paradigm as shaking all the other vendors in there. You’re doing something incredible now. They’re kind of, they were going to reduce it. They’re going to get fs 20. So it’s going to use smaller compact is you had the same from inability. It’s just cost less money. And so they do the wireless thing. So they’ve got the FTO for coming out and all those things. Clever and amazing thing. Lim who in charge came up with some very, very interesting things.

Eric Stromquist: No, Kenny, you’re, you’re, you’re so right about the technology. But listen, let’s focus on the event itself because these guys know how to throw a party where up go to Europe. Okay. And write it off on your taxes. These guys, you’ll learn stuff. But man, we’ve been to all the major soccer stadiums. I made these guys know how to throw a party. It is the best time you’ll have. You’ll learn a lot. You meet integrators from all around the world now Kenny, Brett and I are going to be there. Maybe Aaron Gorka even show up if he gets out of bed long enough to see what’s going on here. But uh, but so that’s going on. We’ve got that. We got real calm. Be Con coming up Kenny in Nashville, Tennessee and then we’ve got the Afore mentioned a HAYSTAK CONNECT. Hey look, get started. We got to start at the beginning here. We got national [inaudible] you got, what do you mean? We have to start at the beginning to see that much 26 this week we got a major event down in Baltimore. And anybody close to that, you go to it. It’s one of the best, uh, you know, uh, in, in our, each department of the country and is great to network and get great training. Uh, it’s start, just wait, we have controls con coming up May 2nd through the fourth up there in Detroit. And I’ll tell you why that’s another one. We have a discount code putting in control trends when you registered. Then we go to project haystack. Okay. May 17th and 18th. I’m sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. May I have, we just had the post up so, uh, that’s on the side. You can go to the site and check it out, but I’m just with my, my, my emphasis is on bang, Bang, Bang. But the, uh, it’s gonna be uh, uh, a resort area too. That’s extraordinary. Anyhow, you’re right, it’s at the Paradise Island, Paradise Island. And uh, it’s May 13th through the 15th. I ride right before we go to go to Holland. But it last but not least, June 11th through the 14th real calm. I be con that’s going to be in Nashville, Tennessee. And we also have a controls trans code coming from Jim Young and the, excuse me, Howard Berger and Lisa, which too. So we’re excited about it because we’re starting as a pivot point for this, this incredible information. Obviously people can’t make it to all of them, but that’s where you need to do your homework. If you’re an integrator and you’re learning about this stuff, uh, you know, you might want to go to a haystack because you can start using that template. If you’re, you’re into the integration and you want to work with the latest and greatest set of tools, do you need to get the easy Ios Global World Conference? You get the additional benefit of some travel and they do have a spectacular today program. Uh, and then if you’re in the real estate business and you’re servicing people that make the need to know how they can make a smarter, more intelligent, more connected building, then you need to go to real calm. So hang on. There’s one more county. Hmm. Very well done. That was nicely done. Okay. Very succinct to the point. I love it. Now, if you need an integrator to put all this great technology and we know a pretty good one in Atlanta on name Entech Brett, tell us how people get hold of Edtech and, and some of the things you guys do,

Brent Burrows: uh, to get ahold of Entek.com. Uh, you know, go to our website, all the contact information, um, or call Eric and he’ll get you over to us. Um, but, uh, but what we do is we try to offer, you know, an an all in one solution. You know, we’d like to thank you. Now we’ll do a little bit of everything. What we’ll do. Anything that you let us do, you know, Kinda like you said before, you want me to paint it green, I’ll paint it green. Yeah. Um, so, uh, so, you know, we do a, the HPAC controls, uh, cardax card access, integrating those systems together. Uh, and then the mechanical HPAC, uh, you know, do all that systems analytics. Um, you know, we try and be, you know, either an all in one solution or if, you know, take one. No, extremely happy with your mechanical company. We’d love to do your controls, vice versa.

Eric Stromquist: Well, the other thing too, Brent and I want to bring up your dad and your company has and more national account work. So if you’re a big box or even a little box retailer that has multiple locations across the United States, your dad’s been doing that for the last 40 years with major accounts. So, you know, a lot of times people that they like assist and they want something put in and uh, uh, I’m going to tell us about your dad before we go. You’ll like this canning, uh, all across the country. So you guys do national accounts as well and do a great job with that. So here’s the story. How many of you know who doctor Laura is? I don’t. Oh Gosh. He had to talk to her. She was like a battle ax. It’s like, you know, you’ve got to be tough. You’ve got to do this and you, you know kind of like a doctor Phil on steroids, although Dr Phils Kinda cuter and she is but uh anyway your dad is doing a borders bookstore and doctor Laura is, they’re doing a book signing and your dad’s up on a ladder working, not working on the Vav box and all of a sudden he hears this voice, hey come over here and move these books and he kind of looks down and goes, who’s doctor Laura or she’s asking me to go do some stuff. So I just waved at her and went right back up and just anyone you ever get a chance to talk to branch dad had worlds, one of the funniest guys and then she wanted the best story tellers rent. Man, thank you so much for being on the show this week. Very excited about what you and Erin, you’re going to come up with a herons. Episode seven is up on control, a controlled product. I’m going to see control controlled fence.com was a great episode and I guess starting at episode eight will probably be you and him working together. So excited about that and they controlled trans community is lucky to have you on board, so thank you for doing this. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me looking forward. All right, so now, now I know you normally listen to the podcast so we got to practice this outro,

Ken Smyers: two more things real quick. I’m sorry this is part of the show. Okay, go ahead. Well anyhow, uh, we do have a shout out. We want to shout out to Bill Schafer. He commented on the Scott Cochrane, um, article that we posted in Scott’s comments and the, you know, just to give you an idea of the flavor and the interesting inputs we get controlled transits that I’ve read Scott Cochrane’s article on automated buildings. I’ve been involved in a couple of projects with temporary networks were necessary. So I found Stanford solution. Interesting. Your article left me with a couple of questions and thoughts about using Ip controllers versus MSTP controllers and how vendors in it departments handle them. And so we have, uh, an opportunity for we forward that to Scott for a response, but we invite all our control trans community to please, these are the kinds of conversations and dialogues we’d love to have because everybody benefits from it. You might get your own little answer. Uh, you know, you might get your own private answer or young interest answer, uh, responded to, but we all benefit from it. And then last but not least, I want to compliment Eric Strom quest, who’s the most hardest working creative, innovative social media guy out there? Eric, he put up four youtube videos. Tell us, tell us about each one real quick. One minute or less on each one of them.

Eric Stromquist: Why? Can’t really remember all. But as we said on the show last week, we get content up quicker on the youtube channel. So Brent, I don’t know about you, but you know how long, a lot from youtube. So we get a lot of questions. Like, for example, we have one on, what’s the difference between two way and three way valves, which a ghuy like you knows , but we created a video for that. Uh, and so we are going to be putting more and more HVAC TECH TRAING VIDEOS on our YOUTUBE CHANNEL. Youtube content up here. So please subscribe to the channel.